stick hits continued - Page 3

T. Hayna, So let the helpers STICK HIT the AS@@@@@ people that are ruining it for the dogs!:) Dawn

The stick hits need to hurt. If a dog can't take it then the dog shouldn't be in the sport. That is the Owner's call, not the helper. Most good working dogs will even make it through a stepped on foot. I have seen many strong hits, and I have given some strong hits. It doesn't matter to good dogs in drive. This is a test of the dog's inner strength, as it should be. The people ruining it for the dogs, are owners of weak dog that put their dogs in a situation they can't handle.

geez...Kathy, Denise,Cindi,and Steve I never hear about the funny stuff and some show owner running on the field like a Screaming like some yuppy Mom sounds funny to me I only heard about Denise's acrobatics on the bike...one of these days I'm going to get to travel to shows again Well folks you've now heard 4 different people describe this "S" person's behavior at this trial maybe we can come up with a new award for "Ignorant Owner category of the Year" and the winner is????

I remember K9chess coming up with authoritative, unsolicited opinions in a previous thread about working abilities of dogs in protection of various lines.Now it seems like she owns a dog that runs off the field under pressure and she's blaming the helper.Another "pseudo expert" unmasked!! Let's move on.

This is the owner and handler of the dog in question. First of all the people that are telling these crazy and very untrue stories are in the click of Cindy Peterson,and Steve House. No! my wife did not go running on the field like a crazy person she did come on the field to check on my dog and yes she did speak her peace. (What would you do if it was your dog?) And No! she was not ushered off of the field, like Kathy said, where these stories are coming from I do not know. She did get upset and she will be the first to own up to that, but as far as the stick hits I was closer then anyone and did see the hits, he never stepped on his foot.. This was what Cindy went around telling everyone because everyone was wanting to know what happened..And they believed her because she told them she saw it..She or Kathy was not in a position to see what happened. As soon as the dog bit he was hit,he came off rebit and was hit again he was not being driven...He was hit extremely hard and in the wrong place.. That's why Steve did not work any more dogs till I was up again...And I heard the judge tell Steve not to use the stick the second time. Why would he do this if he stepped on his foot???? A lot of people know (Tracy Betenhaus) he is the training director for USA and a teaching helper he is a member of the Chattahoochee sch club..He saw what happened. He is very honest if anyone wants to talk to him. This was my first breed survey but I have been handling police dogs for a long time as a k9 handler and any dog can be run off the field I don't care how hard the dog is..Everyone wants to blame the dog,handler or the training when a dog is hurt during protection..I believe it is the helpers responsibilty to ensure the saftey during protection if the dog is injured whose fault is it.....THE DOG...... James

I was also at this event and let me add what I know. First of all, I was on the other side of the field than most people. I had a very good viewing of the whole event. For those that were on the parking lot side, most would have missed what actually happened as the blind may have been blocking their view. Whether Steve did or did not step on the dog's foot, I can't attest to 100%. What I can attest to is that I have known Steve for a very long time and trust him dearly. He told me he stepped on the dogs foot and was genuinely upset by what had happened and I believe him. James, do you often watch your dogs feet as he is being worked? If a helper is to step on your dog's foot, do you think maybe you could have missed it? It's not like he stood there till everyone got a glimpse of it. He yelped, he came off the sleeve and was holding up his foot. Hmmm. You say he was not being driven, but how can that be? I have yet to see a helper standing completely still in a trial or breed survey, or hell, even in training giving stick hits. A helper comes out of the blind, the dog engages and a helper then goes into a drive and applies the stick hits during the drive. I have seen more than one dog accidentally get his foot stepped on during this routine. It happens. Your wife did coming running onto the field, and yes, she was screaming. She also went running to the dog to coddle him. While the other dogs were working, I could hear your wife making loud comments across the field as she paced back and forth in the parking lot. Steve did not work any other dogs? Where were you? I clearly remember him working Enzo and Fero as well, although I can't remember the order, so your dog may have been the last of the males. Why did he not work some of the dogs? Well, because their club set it up so Steve would be the helper for the males, and Allan would be the helper for the females. It was planned that way ahead of the show and was by no means a last minute decision because of whatever happened to your dog. The males were worked first and then females. If your dog was the last of the males, Steve wouldn't have worked any others till you came up again with your male. Simple as that. Trying to grasp at straws here? You heard the judge tell Steve not to use the stick again the second time you were up because he was being considerate of you and your wife. I believe some may call that a gift, but you choose not to see that. From my vantage point on your second turn, you dog engaged and Steve attempted to drive the dog without using the stick in any way. Your dog began to come off the sleeve again within a step or two, and Steve halted immediately to make sure you dog would not fail the breed survey. Again, showing consideration to you. Your dog was not only was given a free pass for stick hits, but he wasn't even driven the second time around either. Some helpers may not have cared and would have continued, allowing you to fail you lifetime breed survey. The fact that your dog was injured was not the dog's fault. Steve owned up to the fact he stepped on his foot and apologized. Accidents happen. Had your dog been strong enough to continue to work through it, would you still be complaining? And how injured was he? He still went on to redo what little work he had to redo, then later go into the ring to do the ring work for the breed survey. If your dog had been so badly injured, do you not think the judge would have allowed the dog to be pulled due to injury? Obviously, the judge did not view your dog as injured.... See this for what it was. It was a breed survey that he will never have to do again. He was not competeing in the Worlds. Be happy your passed and move on.

This is from Cindy Petersen: The bottom line in this discussion, is that your dog got his breed survey. End of story. James and Sandra, you were given a gift by the judge. Take it and be happy. If your dog is still out there competing, he obviously was not injured during the breed survey last year. And yes, James, I was on the field, and I did see what happened. I was at the end of the field, instructing the handlers where to enter the field, and at what point to stop and take off the leash. I then stayed on the field during the protection work to be available to the judge. So, from my vantage point, I had a very good view of the entire event. I do know quite a bit about protection work. Your dog during the stick hits was stepped on. And yes, your dog was being driven. In a breed survey the stick hits come during the drive. If the dog is not being driven, it will not be receiving stick hits. Because your dog came off the sleeve from his foot being stepped on, and it was at the same time as the stick hits, the judge gave your dog the benefit of the doubt and blamed the dog coming off the sleeve and holding up his foot while whining as coming off the sleeve from being stepped on. And, trust me, everyone there saw your wife come running onto the field yelling at the helper that he “hurt her dog”. This did not help your dog, but caused him confusion.

cont. from Cindy Petersen: The judge told your wife to leave the field. She did not. Now, not only has she at this point confused the dog by running at him yelling, she has pissed off the judge. The judge stopped everything to clear the field. Your wife continued to yell and be unruly. You James, did remain calm. The judge had your wife removed from the field. He had you and the dog leave the field. He then spoke with Steve. The judge then came to me as the Trial Chairperson and told me the following. Your dog would be allowed back onto the field for 1 more chance. This was given ONLY because Sandra came onto the field yelling, while running at the dog, which in the judge’s opinion (along with everyone who knows anything about training), caused the dog much distress and confusion and the dog did not have a chance to re-engage the helper. When I tried to talk to Sandra about being given a 2nd chance, she was very ugly to me. So, I went to you and gave you the option to either take the fail, or come back onto the field when the females were done. You were a gentleman about this entire matter, and said you would come back on the field. I then told you Sandra was not to be allowed anywhere near the field or you would not be given this second chance. These were the judge’s instructions. The order of the bitework that day for the breed survey was as follows: All male dogs: Helper Steve House All female dogs: Helper Allan Barry

cont. from Cindy Petersen: So, since you were the last male dog in the order, there is no way Steve could have worked any more dogs until your dog came back on the field. When your dog came back on the field, Steve was instructed to give NO stick hits. This was also a gift to your dog. The judge felt that since the dog came off the first time during the stick hits, while being stepped on at the same time, that the dog would relate his injured foot to the stick hits. The judge wanted the dog to be able to get through the protection work and gain back his confidence. Give this judge some credit for understanding dogs! Your dog, with the help of Steve, made it through the 2nd chance he was given, and received his breed survey. As others have stated, your dog then was able to go around the ring without limping, crying or showing any pain during the rest of the breed survey. For you Sandra, to then call the WDA and complain is a bit strange. Your dog was given a gift. Your dog should have failed the protection work, and your running onto the field was enough for you and your dog to be dismissed. Helpers make mistakes. Dogs get stepped on. Dogs get injured. Helpers get injured. This is a contact sport. I know of NO helper who intentionally goes out on the field to hurt dogs. No one feels worse than the helper when a dog gets stepped on or comes off the sleeve for whatever reason. Helpers these days all have helper books. Judges must sign these books. The judge that day gave Steve an Excellent rating and critique in his helper book. I am sorry your dog had a problem. I am sorry your dog got stepped on. Steve apologized to you. If you do not like Steve’s helper work, that is your choice.

con't from Cindy Petersen: (last section) There are helpers in this country that I would not let work any of my dogs. We all have that choice. If you say Sandra, that you did not like Steve’s work on Friday, then you should have pulled your dog from the breed survey. The choices you made were yours and yours alone. If you think you are the only people who has ever had a bad experience during protection work, you are wrong. Ask anyone who has been in this sport 10 years and you will hear lots of stories. And as for the remarks you have made about me Sandra: You called me a “show dog person”. Because I train and show dogs that automatically means I know nothing about protection work? You know nothing about me. I started in working dogs. My 9 year old male working line dog was whelped and trained by me to SchH 3. He is 3 times SchH 3. I have done protection work. I still do protection work with puppies and young dogs. Show dogs all have to be titled too. They have to perform the same routines and take the same stick hits as working line dogs. Show line dogs get injured in protection work too. Experience in this sport will teach you that accidents happen. Cindy Petersen