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by darylehret on 13 January 2011 - 02:01
Personally I don't know why we dont call the dogs we breed American Working Line German Shepherds.
Because as you say, czech is a definite "type", and in the U.S. there's no consistency of type at all. American WL could mean any kind of working line, so it's easier to convey their type by mentioning their origin. IMO, their origin is somewhat "set" when all of the producers of the first few generations are of the same breed registry. Otherwise, I'd consider them a cross. For example, Faro Policia is about 5/8ths DDR bloodlines based on 4 generations, and that makes him a cross, and one might view that being predominantly of German making.
On the other hand, from the perspective of selection, you might say such a dog were indeed of Czech making, and only if that were the prevailing criteria of selection for the majority of breeders in the Czech republic, it might make sense. Otherwise, the "type" is signified by a particular segment of kennels and its breedmasters, rather than a representation of the country's majority. By appearances, the GSD breeders of India are more consistent with their showline "type".
As Hans states, there are many kinds of czech breeders with different kinds of goals, and I don't see why he doesn't simply pronounce them as being a type after the kennel's name, rather than the country's. Why should "Czech dogs" be synonomous with "Jinopo dogs" only? If there are indeed other like-minded breeders that meet his approval, then perhaps a breeder's guild or seperate registry belonging to only these type of dogs he envisions would be in order. Otherwise, the preservation of a distinct identity that Hans & Co. would like established will always be a source of frustration. Two czech-born producers will continue to be pronounced as producing "czech line" puppies in the U.S., and I don't see the point of disagreeing with that.
Because as you say, czech is a definite "type", and in the U.S. there's no consistency of type at all. American WL could mean any kind of working line, so it's easier to convey their type by mentioning their origin. IMO, their origin is somewhat "set" when all of the producers of the first few generations are of the same breed registry. Otherwise, I'd consider them a cross. For example, Faro Policia is about 5/8ths DDR bloodlines based on 4 generations, and that makes him a cross, and one might view that being predominantly of German making.
On the other hand, from the perspective of selection, you might say such a dog were indeed of Czech making, and only if that were the prevailing criteria of selection for the majority of breeders in the Czech republic, it might make sense. Otherwise, the "type" is signified by a particular segment of kennels and its breedmasters, rather than a representation of the country's majority. By appearances, the GSD breeders of India are more consistent with their showline "type".
As Hans states, there are many kinds of czech breeders with different kinds of goals, and I don't see why he doesn't simply pronounce them as being a type after the kennel's name, rather than the country's. Why should "Czech dogs" be synonomous with "Jinopo dogs" only? If there are indeed other like-minded breeders that meet his approval, then perhaps a breeder's guild or seperate registry belonging to only these type of dogs he envisions would be in order. Otherwise, the preservation of a distinct identity that Hans & Co. would like established will always be a source of frustration. Two czech-born producers will continue to be pronounced as producing "czech line" puppies in the U.S., and I don't see the point of disagreeing with that.
by duke1965 on 13 January 2011 - 03:01
copdogs , I know german breeders who want to use czech dogs , but the SV doesnot allow the use of czech dogs for breeding , other than that if its its located in germany , and trailed , shown and kored under a german SV judge
so its not a matter of choice for them
so its not a matter of choice for them
by SportySchGuy on 13 January 2011 - 14:01
I understand and do agree with some points you stated Daryl. The problem is that a lot of people, dare I say most people, think of Czech dogs as being original type produced by Czech border patrol. So when someone tells me they have old style Czech dogs I think they mean old type of Czech border patrol dogs. Same thing to lesser degree with DDR dogs. Some people think it means dogs used by DDR border patrol but I don't think that is reality (someone correct me if Im wrong). While I realize that type changes with changes in soceity there is still the nostalgia of "old style Czech or DDR dog" that many people use to represent and sell their dogs. When in reality they are not "old style Czech or DDR dogs" so that is a breeder who is misrepresenting themselves and their dogs. True it has become so common place that trying to regulate it now would be most frustrating. For selling point "dogs with bloodlines decending from original dogs used, bred and trained by Czech border patrol" does not sound as good or is as easy to say as "100% old style Czech dogs". Even the term "100% Czech bloodlines" brings up images of czech border patrol dogs tracking through forests and fields. While technically that term may be correct, when combined with people's romanticized view it is misleading. IMO
by Prager on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
Darrel. Off course you can call it German shepherd. That is the name of the breed. They should call it American German shepherd same as we call it Czech (type ) of a German shepherd.
Logic 101 :)
No I did mention specifically any Czech breeders but there are many of them in Czech republic. Their name are behind the names of the dogs on our dogs pedigrees for example. z Travnickova dvora, z Udoli Ediny, Bret-Bett, Kamos, Honajzer, Ben-Ju, z Danaru,.....................They all produce or did produced "Old Style Czech Dogs.
There are not many people here in USA who can with clear consciousness that they produce Old Style Czech dogs . But there are some. They would be people with was knowledge of the Czech dogs and the ones who understand the culture who created them. Like your self.
Prager Hans
http://www.Alpinek9.com
P.S. there is no more connection between AlpineK9 and Dragon.
Logic 101 :)
No I did mention specifically any Czech breeders but there are many of them in Czech republic. Their name are behind the names of the dogs on our dogs pedigrees for example. z Travnickova dvora, z Udoli Ediny, Bret-Bett, Kamos, Honajzer, Ben-Ju, z Danaru,.....................They all produce or did produced "Old Style Czech Dogs.
There are not many people here in USA who can with clear consciousness that they produce Old Style Czech dogs . But there are some. They would be people with was knowledge of the Czech dogs and the ones who understand the culture who created them. Like your self.
Prager Hans
http://www.Alpinek9.com
P.S. there is no more connection between AlpineK9 and Dragon.
by darylehret on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
Maybe just me, but if I hear "old style" czech dogs, the first thing that I think of is the indigenous dogs existing prior to the importation of DDR stock. If I hear "border patrol" style czech dogs, THEN I think of the DDR intermingled indigenous dogs, with NO west german influence, other than Bernd Lierberg.
by darylehret on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
Don't know much of the other kennels, but I always considered z Travnickova dvora to be sport influenced, although one of the older breeders still existing that began such breeding.
by Prager on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
Red Sable
Again as far as we are talking about type of the dog, it does not matter as much where each individual dog on the pedigree came from as long as it conforms with philosophy and culture and purpose for which this culture created this type of dogs. They all come from Germany. But I lived in Germany and I lived in Czech and and I live in USA and there is a wast difference in culture and philosophy of these nations. I firmly believe that each , breed, line of such breed is a product of such culture. Thus it baffles me how people of American culture who do not know anything about Czech culture and their breeding philosophy and purpose for such dogs can claim that they breed Old Style Czech GSDs?!
When I was in Argentina I have heard same complains there about Americans breeding their Argentinian Dogo and and calling them Argentinian style dogs even so Dogo is a hunting dog there and here it was used for protection. And same thing about Filas in Brazil and Anatolian shepherd in Turkey and Kavkazskaia Ovciarka form Kavkaz region of former USSR. And go ahead and ask Germans what would they say if Czechs would call their dogs German style. They would take off and explode like a roman candle.
It is just not right to do this. It baffles me that some do not get it.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Again as far as we are talking about type of the dog, it does not matter as much where each individual dog on the pedigree came from as long as it conforms with philosophy and culture and purpose for which this culture created this type of dogs. They all come from Germany. But I lived in Germany and I lived in Czech and and I live in USA and there is a wast difference in culture and philosophy of these nations. I firmly believe that each , breed, line of such breed is a product of such culture. Thus it baffles me how people of American culture who do not know anything about Czech culture and their breeding philosophy and purpose for such dogs can claim that they breed Old Style Czech GSDs?!
When I was in Argentina I have heard same complains there about Americans breeding their Argentinian Dogo and and calling them Argentinian style dogs even so Dogo is a hunting dog there and here it was used for protection. And same thing about Filas in Brazil and Anatolian shepherd in Turkey and Kavkazskaia Ovciarka form Kavkaz region of former USSR. And go ahead and ask Germans what would they say if Czechs would call their dogs German style. They would take off and explode like a roman candle.
It is just not right to do this. It baffles me that some do not get it.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
Daryl:
For example Arys z Travnickova dvora was used for sport and produced many work dogs. Arys was incorporated in the z PS lines because he produced excellent hips on consistent basis. The owner of the kennel was K9 dog handler and was involved with working police dogs on more levels then just being K9 handler. I would venture to say that he would resent to be called just a sport dog breeder.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
For example Arys z Travnickova dvora was used for sport and produced many work dogs. Arys was incorporated in the z PS lines because he produced excellent hips on consistent basis. The owner of the kennel was K9 dog handler and was involved with working police dogs on more levels then just being K9 handler. I would venture to say that he would resent to be called just a sport dog breeder.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by darylehret on 13 January 2011 - 17:01
You mean like was done with DDR dogs? Yeah, I feel bad for you, but not as bad as I feel for the breed that's being modified to fit the current culture, when it's really the culture that needs to grow a little (OK a LOT) for the breed to maintain it's integrity.
by darylehret on 13 January 2011 - 18:01
Saying one's breeding is "sporting influenced" and "just a sport dog breeder" are not the same thing.
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