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by beetree on 20 March 2011 - 15:03
You got Prager all wrong. He's trying to help you like he does everybody. You aren't recognizing it, though.
by Prager on 20 March 2011 - 15:03
You have said:
Thanks for the challenge. I will show you. There is no need to argue.
I am sorry that you took it that way. I am just trying to make you think. Put a positive hat on and try to read it again. I known that a lot of intentions get misunderstood in written text.
There is an advice in the post. Try to see it please.
Hans
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeders/6442.html
Thanks for the challenge. I will show you. There is no need to argue.
I am sorry that you took it that way. I am just trying to make you think. Put a positive hat on and try to read it again. I known that a lot of intentions get misunderstood in written text.
There is an advice in the post. Try to see it please.
Hans
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeders/6442.html
by JLB82 on 20 March 2011 - 21:03
Well than thank you for your advice. I have an appointment with a trainer Tuesday at 10am. She is going to evaluate Tagan for canine good citizen and his therapy lice sense too see if he is ready and what we need to work on. He already does obey my commands with out the collar: sit, stay (sitting, standing and down) for up to 300 feet now. He also knows halt, left, and right. Along with leave it and heel(he also does all of this on or off leash). He walks on a loose leash.
He is good with kids and other animals. We can do meet and greets with other dogs. He doesn't jump or get overly excited. We have corrected the excitement he would get when he would see a stray dog off leash or the if we came in contact with another dog that was aggressive and with white fluffy dogs. We can walk through crowds of people and animals at the flea market with a loose leash and him walking right by my side. He is no longer worried or concerned with strangers (friends and family) pick up the kids and throw them around playing.
I can take him shopping at pet-co using a shopping buggy and he follows his commands heel, halt, left, and right. Making it seem as if I don't even have a dog with me( I can only wish my children were as behaved as him at a store). He is definite an eye catcher, every person who sees us ask about him and if they can pet him and he loves for them to pet him. When we cash out at pet co, we can stand in line with another dog who is pulling to get to him while the owner is trying to pay for their items and he stays by my side the entire time and doesn't even seem interested in the other dog after I tell him to leave it.
You have to understand that I have owned Tagan since he was 6 weeks old and he has spent every day by my side and with my children. I have been a leader for him and have always showed him that I was top dog in the house and have always trained him to sit, stay, and down and all the other commands. Just one week out of his entire life he tested his dominance with mine and tried to become territorial of my family. I got the shock collar and won. The two incidences that we had three weeks ago were a one time thing and we imminently took the situations seriously and corrected him.And began the heaviest training sessions we have ever had every day from any where from an hour to four hours a day. The shock collar helped me correct his problem behaviors that we were having, but did not train him. We have set up several situations to train him and test his behavior and he is good and knows what I expect with him. I love Tagan and know what he is capable of and will enjoy continuing my education and his for the rest of our lives together.
I know you are probably thinking I'm all talk and just rambling on about a bunch of lies like that one chick on here that kept her 86 year old mother and animals in filth. I assure you I'm a real person, with a real life, who does quite well for my self, my family, and last but not least, my dogs. I'm actually a pretty smart cookie, with a lot of drive, and extremely determined. I deserved respect and demand it. Like I said before I don't need you to believe me now, because I'm going to show you soon. I promise that. I may not be a certified professional trainer or have much experience with training dogs, but I have always had away with animals that everyone who meets me notices. It is a gift I have had since I was a little bitty child and out of my four children, I have two who are just like me.
I mostly am a member of this forum for two reasons. One to learn and the other two chit chat with people who are interested in talking about dogs 24/7. Hardly anyone I know is even close to interested in German Shepherds or animals as much as I am. If I could I would talk about animals all day long and no body around here wants to listen
He is good with kids and other animals. We can do meet and greets with other dogs. He doesn't jump or get overly excited. We have corrected the excitement he would get when he would see a stray dog off leash or the if we came in contact with another dog that was aggressive and with white fluffy dogs. We can walk through crowds of people and animals at the flea market with a loose leash and him walking right by my side. He is no longer worried or concerned with strangers (friends and family) pick up the kids and throw them around playing.
I can take him shopping at pet-co using a shopping buggy and he follows his commands heel, halt, left, and right. Making it seem as if I don't even have a dog with me( I can only wish my children were as behaved as him at a store). He is definite an eye catcher, every person who sees us ask about him and if they can pet him and he loves for them to pet him. When we cash out at pet co, we can stand in line with another dog who is pulling to get to him while the owner is trying to pay for their items and he stays by my side the entire time and doesn't even seem interested in the other dog after I tell him to leave it.
You have to understand that I have owned Tagan since he was 6 weeks old and he has spent every day by my side and with my children. I have been a leader for him and have always showed him that I was top dog in the house and have always trained him to sit, stay, and down and all the other commands. Just one week out of his entire life he tested his dominance with mine and tried to become territorial of my family. I got the shock collar and won. The two incidences that we had three weeks ago were a one time thing and we imminently took the situations seriously and corrected him.And began the heaviest training sessions we have ever had every day from any where from an hour to four hours a day. The shock collar helped me correct his problem behaviors that we were having, but did not train him. We have set up several situations to train him and test his behavior and he is good and knows what I expect with him. I love Tagan and know what he is capable of and will enjoy continuing my education and his for the rest of our lives together.
I know you are probably thinking I'm all talk and just rambling on about a bunch of lies like that one chick on here that kept her 86 year old mother and animals in filth. I assure you I'm a real person, with a real life, who does quite well for my self, my family, and last but not least, my dogs. I'm actually a pretty smart cookie, with a lot of drive, and extremely determined. I deserved respect and demand it. Like I said before I don't need you to believe me now, because I'm going to show you soon. I promise that. I may not be a certified professional trainer or have much experience with training dogs, but I have always had away with animals that everyone who meets me notices. It is a gift I have had since I was a little bitty child and out of my four children, I have two who are just like me.
I mostly am a member of this forum for two reasons. One to learn and the other two chit chat with people who are interested in talking about dogs 24/7. Hardly anyone I know is even close to interested in German Shepherds or animals as much as I am. If I could I would talk about animals all day long and no body around here wants to listen
by jamesfountain98 on 21 March 2011 - 17:03
@JLB, speaking from limited experience, I wish i had some one of greater experience to work with my dog in the manner that Prager refers to. The way my dog preforms (off leash) for food reward, toys, and e-collar stimulas is amazing when compared to when she knows a treat or toy is unavailable and the e-collar is not on her.
The use of food and e-collar stimulation seems to teach a dog a certain behavior pretty fast, but it takes a longer time to wean them off of the food/e-collar. You have taught the behavior but I believe Prager is trying to tell you don't go too far in your training without working on the bond (Pack leader, in my Dog Whisper voice, lol)
nor do i consider it a mirracle.
The use of food and e-collar stimulation seems to teach a dog a certain behavior pretty fast, but it takes a longer time to wean them off of the food/e-collar. You have taught the behavior but I believe Prager is trying to tell you don't go too far in your training without working on the bond (Pack leader, in my Dog Whisper voice, lol)
nor do i consider it a mirracle.
by LadyFrost on 22 March 2011 - 00:03
JLB82...glad you have it under control, enjoy your pup...if life taught us anything is that we rarely get "lucky" twice in a row...if this dog is great and works for you..great, enjoy it, love it...because your next one may just be one stubborn s*b. :)
don't worry we will all welcome you back and support you in things that don't work like they did with "my (your) favorite dog"..
don't worry we will all welcome you back and support you in things that don't work like they did with "my (your) favorite dog"..
by MAINLYMAX on 22 March 2011 - 17:03
Miracles ......are a soul group from the sixties..........
The real magic comes from understanding operant conditioning.
And how it works.
If you reward or correct the dog to long after the moment of
behavior. The dog will not associate it with the behavior you
are trying to increase or decrease.
Do not correct a dog too long after the behavior.....
He does not know why he is being corrected.
How long is to long????.......about 15 seconds or less.
A professional trainer will deliver a correction or reward in less than 2 seconds.
A very good trainer sets the dog up to give a correction or reward in 1 second or less.
Impossible to do if your dog is working off leash without an e-collar.
The real magic comes from understanding operant conditioning.
And how it works.
If you reward or correct the dog to long after the moment of
behavior. The dog will not associate it with the behavior you
are trying to increase or decrease.
Do not correct a dog too long after the behavior.....
He does not know why he is being corrected.
How long is to long????.......about 15 seconds or less.
A professional trainer will deliver a correction or reward in less than 2 seconds.
A very good trainer sets the dog up to give a correction or reward in 1 second or less.
Impossible to do if your dog is working off leash without an e-collar.
by MAINLYMAX on 22 March 2011 - 18:03
Clicker training uses operant conditioning in a positive reinforcement
training program.
Clicking is said to have a fast stimulus to the amygdala.
I have found some sounds that I make during training, dogs love to
hear. They tend to be a clucking or claddering sounds. I get
strange looks some times, but people are happy at how fast
the dogs pick up the task.
The clicker is a hand held device that is ued to click when the dog
is doing the command.
by MAINLYMAX on 22 March 2011 - 20:03
Primary and secondary reinforcement............
You as the owner and food are the dogs primary reinforcement.
These are the strongest reinforcers for the dog.
You can go along way on them alone.....
But clicker training and e-collar training are
tools that bring the dog to the next level of
performance. No one says you have do go
beyond what you are comfortable doing.
And don't use something like a E-collar without
getting the information you will need to use it
properly.
Look at the dog by what he needs and see what
motivates him. I like a dog with lots of energy
and is comfortable for the most part with his training.
But there will come a time when I would say play time
is over and this is some thing that has to be done
not something that is an option. This I don't deal
with much until the top level of the dogs training.
But it aways comes because of the pressure the dog
is under to complete the task , which is much harder to achieve at tough competitions.
This is why I am very selective of the type of dog I choose to train to this level.
Not every national or world championship is equally difficault to win. It is the other
dogs that you are competing aginst that make it a easy or hard win.....1992 was a hard win
at the WUSV. The best dogs were there, and all put on outstanding performances.
Any time you work your dog with a top trial decoy he is going to try his best
to bring out your dogs the faults. The judge needs a clear look inside this dogs head
to see if he is handling the pressure well and at a level that is competitive with other top performing
dogs.
You as the owner and food are the dogs primary reinforcement.
These are the strongest reinforcers for the dog.
You can go along way on them alone.....
But clicker training and e-collar training are
tools that bring the dog to the next level of
performance. No one says you have do go
beyond what you are comfortable doing.
And don't use something like a E-collar without
getting the information you will need to use it
properly.
Look at the dog by what he needs and see what
motivates him. I like a dog with lots of energy
and is comfortable for the most part with his training.
But there will come a time when I would say play time
is over and this is some thing that has to be done
not something that is an option. This I don't deal
with much until the top level of the dogs training.
But it aways comes because of the pressure the dog
is under to complete the task , which is much harder to achieve at tough competitions.
This is why I am very selective of the type of dog I choose to train to this level.
Not every national or world championship is equally difficault to win. It is the other
dogs that you are competing aginst that make it a easy or hard win.....1992 was a hard win
at the WUSV. The best dogs were there, and all put on outstanding performances.
Any time you work your dog with a top trial decoy he is going to try his best
to bring out your dogs the faults. The judge needs a clear look inside this dogs head
to see if he is handling the pressure well and at a level that is competitive with other top performing
dogs.
by Don Corleone on 22 March 2011 - 20:03
Max, I guess you lost me. What does a helper putting pressure on a dog have to do with E-collars?
by MAINLYMAX on 22 March 2011 - 21:03
Don,
Very good question....
First let us say that a helper and a decoy have 2 different
jobs. Than we can go from there...
In blind work for SchH you ask how do I keep my dog square in
the blind.
The helper in training, aligns the dog with the dog being tied off.
The straight line comes from the point at which the helper positions
the dog from what is called the point point,
(the point at the other end where he is tied off)....giving you a dog who
is squire in the blind position. From this, if my dog differs from
either side I will use a finger kick. But once again, I would reiterate that you
must first have your positions and positions in motion established so the dog
knows what-he doing. You are only fine tuning at this point.
You will use this approach over and over as the dog goes to the next level
of performance.
The decoy is for Ring sport....and the finger kick it is used some times for bring up the
level of barking and controlling the level of aggression when the dog should
focus.
There are many applications, but all should be understood before you try them.
Bart Bellon would show you at least 5 ways to improve your dog with small changes.
But you need him to show you how it is done. He is a dog smith. This is what he does.
I don't want to put out too much here, I feel it is necessary to do this on the field with
a qualified trainer. For those interested seek out a club near you.
Very good question....
First let us say that a helper and a decoy have 2 different
jobs. Than we can go from there...
In blind work for SchH you ask how do I keep my dog square in
the blind.
The helper in training, aligns the dog with the dog being tied off.
The straight line comes from the point at which the helper positions
the dog from what is called the point point,
(the point at the other end where he is tied off)....giving you a dog who
is squire in the blind position. From this, if my dog differs from
either side I will use a finger kick. But once again, I would reiterate that you
must first have your positions and positions in motion established so the dog
knows what-he doing. You are only fine tuning at this point.
You will use this approach over and over as the dog goes to the next level
of performance.
The decoy is for Ring sport....and the finger kick it is used some times for bring up the
level of barking and controlling the level of aggression when the dog should
focus.
There are many applications, but all should be understood before you try them.
Bart Bellon would show you at least 5 ways to improve your dog with small changes.
But you need him to show you how it is done. He is a dog smith. This is what he does.
I don't want to put out too much here, I feel it is necessary to do this on the field with
a qualified trainer. For those interested seek out a club near you.
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