House raised vs kennelled raised for top performance in "C" - Page 3

Well if i kept my dogs in the House they would not see too much of me, i would be outside working of which i do a great deal of the daylight hours from 5 o'clock in the mornings in Summer till dark and start at 6.30 in the Winter mornings,
So that means the Dogs would only see me in the evenings, as it is they see me best part of the Day whist i am working outside Winter and Summer, This morning they saw me at 4.30 when i took one out for exercise, 
Gina is at the training club at this moment, I guess waiting her turn to go on Protection as it is 11.30 in the morning here.
When she gets home at 1.30 she gets her breakfast. and i will be out in the Garden this afternoon till near Dark, This morning we had a vital Training Race for the Barcelona pigeons, who race early in July i had to stay behind to see all was well when they arrived home otherwise i would be at the training club as well. as it is i have come in for a cup of tea and a look on here, now it is time to get back outside and dabbing away on here my Tea has gone cold So i will blame Sandra for that
Steve1

? what is the value of having a dog ..... if it is to live apart from you in a kennel ?? .. form ancient man the success of mankind and wolves has been predicated on' Relationship' [ and all attributes that contirbute to that relationship ] . the result .. in essence the most true animal given to mankind is the canine -- it is the only truely dometicated animal .. BECAUSE -- it lives side by side with us .. do you take cattle into your dwelling? a horse, ? not even the cat in a household measures to a canine  , for if that cat  was 90 lbs more that cat  wouldn't need us to help it meets it's needs! i haver had up to 13 , currenlty 11 GSDs in my house , 7 or 8 which lie on the floor next to me at night !! foremost is the 'relationship ' .. what kind do you want for yourself and your family ? And as far as the working ability of a canine .... i have had police officer friends whose K9's lived INSIDE the house with the family !! will you make the dog a little more edgey in a kennel -perhaps .. but to think a dog won't or can't work to it's potential by being beside you and your family in a house is a MAJOR fallacy .. i have had dogs in the house .. as written ..but they learn manners, i am not on them- don't do this , don't do that .. e.g chewing .. simple .. they don't get the opportunity as pups to chew .. they never learn that behavior ..my current 11 week pup , she had learned by 8 weeks to go to the door to go outside for voiding !! let's make sure reasons are reasons and excuses are excuses .. So again --- for each to decide .. ?what is the value of having a friend if it's on  conditional terms ,: to have a dog and place it in a kennel?   

ALPHAPUP
And what if the Guys who have there Dogs in the House are away from home for 8 to 10 hours every day 5 days a week going to work and the Dogs are left in the house on there own. Is that okay just because the dogs are in the House
 As i said mine live outdoors they can see me at least 10 hours on every daylight day and i can speak to them whist i am working, Plus they get exercised every day TWICE and 3 times a Week off to the Training Club
That is a good life for any dog, You live in a different part of the world to where i am and your ways are completely different with dogs in a big part.
 95 % of people certainly Sports people over here there dogs live outdoors and none the worse for it,
Proof is in the pudding so to speak, There are more Champions of the Dog sport in Belgium than anywhere in the World over the last 16 years that i know of and that is plain Fact
 So how come there Dogs are suffering for not living indoors. The current and the greatest World Champion of all time in the Dog Sport his Dogs live outdoors but i tell you this those Dogs dote on the Man and his Wife a greater bond between man and Dogs you could not have.
Everyone has there own way and no one can say one way is better than the other, it is like feeding a Dog on Raw as against Kibble No one can say 100% guarantee that one way is better than the other or that a dog is healthier one way fed or the other, It is circumstances of the Owner his or her likes and what they think is best for the Dog and them
For me a dog is healthier outdoors no question and no one will change my mind on that proof over 60 years of keeping them in top condition is proof enough, and the many Dogs over the years loved me to death as i did them
Look at the Pic in the Avatar does she look hard done by for living outdoors
Steve1

I just found out that my new neighbor, who moved in two months ago, had been robbed three times already (he’s house backs to the same woods as mine)!!!. His dogs were locked up in an outdoor kennel... Well – everybody in town knows my dog is loose so my house and business has never been robbed...
 

Niesia .. i just wrote a post stating " what value is it to have the dog outside while an intruder is inside ?? but i erased it .. people have to decide for themselves .. but i found many people are just plain 'ol wound up about their dogs - people have a tendency to justify what they do and think ..  !! such as .. the majority of people just want a dog , who cares about competing on a world level [ personally- i am not impressed by WUSV , WORLD competition places -[ BIG DEAL to me.not arrogance , i just have been around to see what people do to get to 'THE TOP'  .. , , i was offered but refused international competing & declined. ,] i have seen a great dogs/handlers a multitude of times that never competed ..  [ that is just IMHOp]...... AND IMHOp .. if you have to do or not do certain things with your dog to be at the top - i.e  keep it outside ..  they can have all the trophies and that alone tells me about the nature and character of the human .. be it said  "it is what it is ">>. i pass no judgement - to each his/her own ..
                  however .. for the readers : let's understand : " the CANINE , dog in particular is a PACK animal by NATURE !! it is and ALWAYS WIIL BE a PACK animal .. what we do will not change that!!.. that does not imply a 'part time' pack creature either. .. i have never done ' think -tank' tactics , kennel tactics , food deprivation [ for tracking] , sensory deprivation [ having the dog out only when it is time to work ] in order for my dogs to perform or work .. i don't try to make then what they are not and what they are ,  i accept them for .. as for me ..  in my life .[ and i don 't expect anyone else to think and feel as i do ].. but with honesty within myslef .. I CANNOT justify or have ANY reason to keep my dogs outside my house,  kenneled. what good is having a dog if it is not at your children's side .. just the presence or a bark is at times enough to save it's life .. niesia - your point is one to contemplate 

Well it seems that those who keep there dogs in the house always have someone 'Human' that is in the house with the dogs 24/7. and no one leaves the house for any length of time like going to work for 8 to 9 hours a day. If the dogs are left in the house for 8 to 9 hours if the people have to go to work and i would think a few of you Guys and others need to work need to work. What happens then to your Dogs. They are left alone in the house loose or in a Crate, How do you think that is doing right  by the dog, Now that statement is to ALPHAPUP and those on this thread you think different to us over here in Europe,
Now saying this as i said elsewhere there is NO proof that a Dog living indoors with or without the owners in the house 24.7 are any happier than a Dog like mine and 1000's of others who live outdoors 24/7 it is personal preference.
I do know by experience that a Dog will grow a coat according to the conditions it lives in so if they live outdoors there coat in the Winter is of a better quality than one living in Central heating house.
I have NEVER heard of a Dog who is well cared for who lives outdoors EVER getting a coat or Skin complain, NEVER in all the years i have kept dogs, of course if an animal is neglected it will but i am talking about the usual caring owner, However i have heard many times and also on this Forum of many Dogs with a Skin Complaint that live in doors, Now of course no one will blame the Central heating for drying the Dogs coat out and it does no question about that, i found that out when i bought my famous Herding Border Collie Dog Charlie over when i moved to Belgium in the Winter of 2004, and he was famous we having won numerous sheep herding competitions together
He had to live indoors until i could get materials to build his pen and Kennel, in 2 weeks the dogs coat went downhill dull flaking and his eyes lost there sparkle and he lost condition
I turned the Central heating off completely during the 2 to 3 weeks he lived in the house to help the dog
However he finally went outdoors and his coat came back to its luxuriant self in 2 weeks the Dog was happy again.
Everyone to there own to be honest if i had myself to keep the dogs indoors through lack of space to house them outdoors i would get rid of them to someone who would house them outdoors that is how i feel so strongly about it  i would not keep dogs at all as much as i like them.
Steve1

steve ... i have three dog doors for my odgs to enter my house ... some are left in the house as i leave .. generally if i am outdoors doing yard work the dogs are to .. if i am in the dogs are too if they wish .. some can go into a run , others in a 40x40 foot pen ... some go to work with me .. sometimes i drive around in my surburban vehicle six GSDs  at a time.. as i wrote .. each decides for themsleves .. BUT i did not hear anyone rebutle / challenge the idea .. canines are Pack animals .. some canines content with only so many hours of the owners company .. well .. that's for them .. but for my posts .. and sometimes i read the number of visists to a thread here - they number in the thousands... , many of whom have companion dogs .. world competition is not an ideal for them .. perhaps they need know tha there is an upside and a downside of kenneling a dog outside the home...  also what i have seen , the opposite side of the coin .. i have friends that think differently than I do .. their dogs live in the garage , or are kennelled until they work then do back -- they have the notion a kennelk dog makse a better working dog .. .. they score at the top / high in competitions ... but i say the same to them .. of what value is having a dog .. you might just as well as get into NASCAR[ auto racing]... so que sera sera ...

Alphapup,
Dogs are definitely pack animals.

Suzie prefers lying squeezed under our feet in a working truck to being left home alone in comfort. She’ll stay in a wide open truck keeping an eye on stuff at the jobsite for hours. She will not complain a bit stack in a back of our car with suitcases on a two week trip to Montana. (OK she’ll moan if the suitcase falls on her…). She will sleep happily in a car all night without a complaint if the hotel doesn’t allow dogs and she is never crated in it. She will be happily uncomfortable as long as she is with the pack. Suzie thrives on cruising with the pack. She has no willingness to run away, her life is with the pack … She is simply one of us and for us she’ll do anything. In six years she has never back down or run away from any challenge as she knows that the pack stands behind her.

In my opinion better dog is the one that can be kept inside the house, travel with you, play with your kids even if his score is couple of points lower than the scores of the dog that is perfect on a field but you cannot trust him around your kids or keep loose in a house. I’m sorry that this characteristic, so vital for real family protection is not taken into consideration at all…

Pack Animals dogs may be up to a point but one dog can live alone it needs humans to see to its needs i.e. food , exercise and a bit of social time but not 24/7, But Humans are not dogs so you are in fact not one of the pack You may think you are but you are not a dog and dogs do not think like humans,
The way humans or i should say SOME humans look at it is a fallacy, There is never any way we will know if a dog thinks we are one of there kind, NO ; We are Homo Sapiens they are Cannis Lupus. WE' own the Dogs the Dogs do not own us they look to us for there needs but will go there own way if they think fit
However i maybe wrong about that the way some Dogs run the owners lives. A dog is happy when it has human company at times, A dog needs its own space to be what it is, A DOG.
 The same as we do WE NEED our own space from each other and from other humans.
I notice a lot of my points regards Central Heating etc and work and leaving dogs at home were not bought up only by ALPHAPUP NO one else mentioned that or any of my other points regards living indoors.
Or was the fact that many on here liken Dogs to Wolves they are NOT wolves and so far removed from them dogs have been dogs for 1000's of years nothing said on that yet this is forever being bought up on this forum so people do think dogs are still close to wolves.
SORRY but many of you Americans in part have so many different idea's about how to treat dogs in general regards many points that we differ from over here in Europe and we will never agree it is something which has evolved through time in each country just like this great breed has evolved we all do as we think best for the animal and us
So i have said what i have to on this thread it will go round in circles if we continue. it will arise at some other time but for now i am out of it,
And we have as usual gone off the main subject, due in part to me
Steve1

Yes indeed. This topic has certainly gone off my original query about "top performance" issues as regards to being house raised compared to kennel raised, and if there was a difference in their performance.

I appreciate the passionate discussion on both sides and I would love to find a golden-middle (just a pun) in this situation if I ever pursue dogsport.  A few contributors here have shared their success in raising top sport/ working dogs in the house.  So that basically answers what I wanted to know and also the pitfalls to avoid.

Thanks everyone.  Having heard both sides helps :)