Sit Out of Motion Advice - Page 1

I'm having difficulty teaching Senta the sit out of motion:

I read this thread (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=272915) and teach most similiarly to 4pack:
"I do it the good old fashioned way, start by stopping with my dog, then only pausing, then just giving a jerk as I keep walking, then adding more and more speed, doing it at an all out run, to a sit or down."

Senta isn't going past the second stage- she sits fine when I stop and when I pause, but we can't move to the next stage. When I tug the leash and say "sit" without stopping/pausing, she goes into a strange hunching stand - she clearly doesn't understand whether to sit or to move forward. She wants to obey but doesn't understand what is expected of her. When I talked to my trainer in class on Saturday, he suggested that I pull more firmly on the leash when I say "sit" (during motion) but this hasn't corrected the issue. I'll talk to my trainer again this Saturday but in the meantime, I wondered if folks had some suggestions for me or perhaps had a different training technique that they've found really successful. Her down out of motion is better- although we are still working on keeping her body straight consistently (she doesn't always recall that her butt and head are connected). I would also like to note that I quite like my trainer and Senta genuinely wants to obey so I'm sure the problem lies with me. :)

If she doesn't understand where you are, back up a step or two or three, and reinforce the place where she's proficient and go forward from there. There may be point that she's getting stuck understanding, but it does no good to use more force. A good foundation will only help you move forward to where you want to be and help prevent problems you'll wish you didn't create by going too fast for her understanding.

I had trouble with this with my male doing a slow, hydraulic sit.  What worked the best was a quick prong correct with the command, but I put the prong on backwards (attached under the chin) and corrected forward, so his oppositional reflex was to sit where he was.

Another thing I've seen work is when you give the command, turn into your dog so you physically block the dog and your dog ends up in front position.

Sounds like she's cued on your leg movement much more than the "sit" command  So you need to bridge the two together.  When you stop, say "sit" in a higher pitched voice (to grab her attention), and keep marching in place.  If she doesn't sit immediately, keep marching in place and give her little leash pops upward (intended more to help, less about a correction) until she sits, then mark with an atta girl, big praise.  repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat blah blah blah

I also do the pivot as mentioned by VKGSD, but after the dog understands the above stuff.  I like the pivot especially because it helps the dog to really sit back and quickly, it's unnexpected and a little shocking, and because he's looking up, it  sort of rocks him off his front end, and pops his ass down (boom), all without touching him, so he learns this is what you want, a quick sit out of motion. 

This might or might not help, could go either way, since I don't know you or your dog it's kind of a shot in the dark, some dogs it works, some dogs other techniquest are better, but these things have worked for many people, many times.

 

Quit popping on the leash and teach her the sit with your body in many different positions. If she truely wants to obey, then why isn't she? If she doesn't understand what you want, go back to square one and teach her how to generalize the cue of sit. I always try the out of motions from the front and from my right side before putting the dog in heel and asking. I also make sure my dog can sit really quickly in the context of "Ivan's game" before i ask for a sit in motion. That way I know the dog truely understands what the word "sit" means without extra body motion.
Also, does she do a rock back sit or a tuck sit?. It matters. Dogs can't do a quick sit out of motion if you've taught them a rock back. Or a quick sit in basic position period.

Here is a way to solve both your problem of sit and down,
For the Sit you walk at heel on leash, tell the Dog to Sit and turn immediately into the dog, Keep doing this for a time say a week every day and not walk on at all, then one day do the turn into your Dog then go back to the dogs side pause and walk on at heel again tell the dog to sit but walk on 4 paces turn pause and walk back to your dogs side when the dog is doing it correct every time then walk on for 6 paces then 8 and so on before you turn around,
For the Down start off with the walking at Heel give the dog the verbal command to down at the same time smack it on the top of the head with your left hand, Not hard but on top of the head as you do this stretch your left leg forwards so the dog downs parallel with your leg he will then be laying in a straight line, keep this up for a week or so until the dog downs quickly and straight, before you move on to the next stage of walking on
Steve1
We also do this when tracking a young dog when it comes to the item we stretch the left leg forwards so the dog lays straight
If it gets into a habit of laying to one side points will be taken off

There are some good suggestions here; I really appreciate the time that people spent responding to my request for advice.
 
I haven't watched the Ivan Balabanov videos but am considering it (update to the DVDs http://www.trainperview.com/dog-training-videos/default.aspx?action=showCategory&id=9). Many folks here recommend different videos, it appears to be a matter of personal choice and goals (ie. Joanne Fleming-Plumb, Michael Ellis, Gottfried Dildei, Bernhard Flinks, Helmut Raiser, Monks of New Skete, Ricardo Carbajal, etc.).
 
Senta was taught to do the tuck sit from the very beginning of her training. She understands the sit command in different contexts since her life revolves around this command- she has to sit quickly and stay until released before she can: enter/leave the house, leave her kennel, get into the truck, be fed, be let off-leash, etc. We spent about 7 or 8 weeks (practice every day) doing the sit out of motion via the stop and then the pause so I thought she would be ready to go to the next stage but clearly I'm wrong. I think I'll try the march in place and then advance to the pivot and see how that goes.

Thanks again.
Laura

For some dogs the cue "heel" trumps the sit cue. This may be true for Senta if she does the sit in all the other contexts. Can she sit with your back turned? That way we know for sure she isn't responding to a slight dip of the head or a shoulder movement.
All those videos are good. It may be personal preference for some people but for me, I learn somethinig from everyone. All those trainers are very talented and accomplished and have very valid reasons for doing things the way they do them. The trick is learning from everyone, yet keeping the method consistent for your own dog.
Have fun!
Shade

Good luck Laura. 

" The trick is learning from everyone, yet keeping the method consistent for your own dog."

truer words were never spoken!


 

When we call a dog to us the word is voot, If we for instance after a dog bites in protection and is guarding when we want to do the next move we say Sit we are at the dogs side first, and then to move off we say voot but we always wait 5 seconds or so after saying the word the dog then looks up into the face of the handler and we do not move until the dog does look up,
So we start off at the sit postilion say voot wait till the dog looks up move off so many paces then SIT sharp turn into the dog as the word is said the dog will sit when the dog looks up to your face you return to its side and give it a sweet or ball plus a good boy and so forth
a certain way of getting the dog to sit correctly and straight same with the down but we do not use the word down. It is not only getting the dog to Sit and Down in a straight line it must be done with conviction and speed
However as said here are many ways which work the best thing is to incorporate what is said on here and blend some of it into your own way of training
Steve1