Sit Out of Motion Advice - Page 2

Lots of good suggestions already given to you.  Just a couple other suggestions. 

I hope that each training session doesnt go too long, 10 minutes is a LONG training session; i rarely do a 10 min session, usually 6-8  min per session, twice a day.

I hope that you use a different "tone of voice" for the HEEL, DOWN and SIT commands.

And different leash cues when teaching and reinforcing the DOWN and SIT 

So, when teaching the SIT, the command is higher pitched, happy, and a slight UP tug on the leash

When teaching the DOWN, the command is my lowest pitch, and a slight DOWN tug on the leash

The HEEL command is more neutral, in the mid range tone, a firm command

One other thought, when you are working on what she having MOST difficulty with, when she does do it well, give her a super favorite reward, it could be her tug, her ball, a favorite food reward, whatever she likes best

Keep at it, have patience, and you are guaranteed to succeed

@Changer- "Can she sit with your back turned?" This is really interesting- I honestly don't know. I'll have to try this when I get home tonight. She'll remain in a long stay in a sit or a down when my back is turned (or I'm cartwheeling or rolling around on the ground, etc) but I don't think I've ever told her to sit when my back was turned. Hmmm .... Thanks for your thoughts on the videos- I'm glad to know that I can't really go wrong in my choice.

@sueinc- "Good luck Laura"- Thanks! I need every drop of luck! I sure have an appreciation for people's training videos (like Gina and steve1's)- it all looks so easy in a video clip but everything takes a ton of time and work!

@steve1- "is not only getting the dog to Sit and Down in a straight line it must be done with conviction and speed". Definitely. Like VSGSDs' dog, Senta can do a slow, hydraulic sit but she is corrected every time and not rewarded for this behavior. I've learned that it's usually not  hard to teach Senta to do something (other than the out of motion sit), the real challenge is getting her to do it cleanly, quickly, and consistently. But then again, I'm shiny and new to training.

@Sandra- Many good tips in your post. Her training is broken up into a few small sessions except when we have class on Saturdays (but that's where I learn, not her). No, I don't use a different tone of voice for different commands- I'll try that. Good idea to change the reward when she does something that's really hard for her (chuckit flying squirrel- it's carefully hoarded so that it stays special).

Thanks again for everyone's comments- I printed them out and read them all carefully.

Laura

Like VSGSDs' dog, Senta can do a slow, hydraulic sit but she is corrected every time and not rewarded for this behavior.
 

Personally, I do not feel that dogs learn, at least not fast, by being rewarded for one thing and not rewarded for another, especially when the dog is already working in drive.  I do not think the dog will really put it together that, "OH maybe I'm not being rewarded because I'm sitting too slow!"  I had this problem with my male (as you know).  The dog needs to be trained what TO do and the training needs to be shaped so the dog is always setup to perform the behavior correctly rather than reward 50/50 and wait for the dog to figure it out.  It doesn't have to be leash corrections or corrections of any kind but you have to find some way of helping the dog do it correctly so that you CAN reward every time for a while until the dog is consistent and proofed.

One thing that came to mind is, are you holding a toy when you do this exercise?  I know a lot of people train heeling with lures like having a toy under their armpit or on their chest.  Often the dogs just "lock up" because they are obsessed with that lure, not really thinking through what they are doing.  If this is the case, get rid of the lure so the dog isn't locking in prey and can think this through.

I can guarantee that if you turn sharply into the Dog and face it as you say Sit it will sit. and it has another good point it teaches the Dog when coming to you to sit close to you, some dogs stop a foot away from the handler points lost and not good for block work the dog needs to come up close this turning into the dog will help a great deal in solving that problem a bit later on
Steve1

I agree with you, Steve.

Actually VKGSD, when you understand the method, using the ball under the arm, in a pocket, or with a ball dropper vest the dog NEVER results in a dog who only works for the toy/ball/tug PROVIDING the handler/trainer understand the correct method for using ball/toy/tug.  Like anything, when done wrong, the results are always less than satisfactory, such as a dog who is only correct if he thinks the handler has the toy/ball/tug on his person.  This is what happens, people see something and like the results, but either don't understand the mechanism that gets you there, or think they can take shortcuts and end up with the same results.....big mistake either way!

I've enjoyed reading people's different thoughts on training techniques on this thread.

@VKGSDs -
I apologize for typing your username incorrectly in my previous post; my husband loves your description of "slow, hydraulic sit" (he's a mechanical engineer).

I understand that I need to be careful not to set my dog up to fail and to have reasonable expectations for her progress. Her learning is scaffolded - whether it be the use of wooden guides during initial training for the recall and finish or a wall for heeling training, etc.

I do use a food lure for heeling but I found it helped Senta to learn the correct positioning for heeling (needed more so early on) than causing any issues. I use a toy to reward for the long stay in the down or sit (makes it a bit more fun for her).

@steve1- I definitely will try turning into Senta for sit out of motion training. She sits straight and close for recalls (she was taught using wooden guides).

Laura

i disagree with the 'pitch " commentary .. IMO talk to youir dpog just with a normal voice .. normal tone , normal pitch , normal frequency , normal volume , normal cadence[ don't drag out the word i.e siiiiit , staaaaaaaaannnd , just 'sit ', just 'stand']. .. just state to the dog what you what it to do .. for a number of reasons .. but one reason .. your dog takes many cues from your body ... most often there is no confuency with body language and one's mouth .. you can be consistent quite more often in ' normalcy of voice' than you can worrying about your voulume , tone , pitch changes 100% of the time in a number of different exercises always being consistent for a particular exercise ! you can have a 'happy voice' but a normal happy voice always !! IMO train your dog in your regular / normal voice ..not to the projection of your voice. in a tial , most people will be a little nervous .. so IMO train yourself to be consistent in your own voice .. if you change your voice in a trial the dog will pick this right up and respond too .

another comment: yes  postion and  movement are two parameters !! as stated in other threads - there is no sit-stay .. sit is sit , meaning a [position .. so what does this have to do with the sit in motion? FOUNDATION and TYRANSLATION - GENERALIZATION -- always think in fundamentals , So i teach the dog sit .. right now i have taught my 10 week pup , on my kitchen counter to :  Sit .. but not just "sit'  . at 11 weeks it has learned sit and sit and sit andc sit and sit !! that is to say .. it has not learned to move out of sitting once it has sat . and by 11 weeks that understood ... i have also moved away straight 5 feet , to the side R&L 5 feet , twirled around leaving , jumped up and down while leaving .. i always always go back and : 1. the dog never has a reason to break the sit [  implied- stay] and 2. the dog has paired with it's notion of sitting : that i can go away as it is to remain sitting !! that is to say .. i already have incorporated into the dog's schema not only to sit/hold - i always come back from whatever i am doing ... to also when i am in MOTION AWAY FROM YOU you will reramin comfrtably sitting !!  So now .. as i will in the future dso thje sit oput of motion ... i can easily say "sit " while walking turn into the dog[ this aids in preventing a creep 1 step forward before the sit].  and after a few repititions i can go back to then the picture i had created in the pup . ie the dog seeing me leave and it sits comfortably and that i will be back [no nmeed to follow] ... !! SO realize that what we teach is what the dog learns and also what we teach / how we teach it can tranlsate into future learning !!

Laura the sit in motion and down in motion is  a basic sit down exercise.  the dog does not make a mistake the handler does she is not understanding
exactly what you want. go back to doing a simple sit stop go 3 steps again sit stop and repeat 5 times no pressure to the dog but praise the haunching
in the sit is pressure.  You can jerk the collar but you will form a habit of this and lose points in a trial I have done the sit and turn face in to the dog
but this can be done very simple 5 minutes in your home it's a sit stay exercise  The same with the down in motion it's a down stay exercise
be patient in your training make it fun for you and your dog with corrections but much praise when they are correct don't always do a routine it's
boring for the dog   teach each exercise individually and then put them together in a routine   dogs can count the paces they anticipate the command
and correction !  change it up you only have to do the routine the day of the trial, training is training preparing for the trial make your dog enjoy this by
making each exercise fun  they will dance for you and you won't lose handler points for handler help in your body movements.

No ... 'sit in moton'  IS NOT a BAISC sit exsercise..  Again .. fundamentals .. that is like statingf: in the teaching phase when you are teach 'sit' , that a 'sit' in your backyard , as you go to a sit infront of a store .. is the same exercise .  -- it is NOT the same exercise in the dog's mind !! a sit in your yard is different than a sit at another location up and until the dog generalizes and understand the new concept !! in addition not only have you have the initial parameter , location . with motion you have added another parameter.. in communicating /training our dogs ... we MUST THINK as our dogs do !! the picture in their minds is different .. [ how can one give advice on a forum and not understand basic fundamentals?]. in my previuos post .. what i had implied is also : what we have taught in the past also effects what we have to teach in the present .. the good communication [teaching]... and the poor  at that , too !! AGAIN .. a fundamental : 'if your dog cannot 100% reliably hold a sit /down in the midst of all sorts of distractions then how can you add motion? Also , for sake of converstaion .. there can be other factors , such as and not knowing specifically to any poster , a ' dependency problem .. that can affect the teaching of this exercise in motion , where the dog needs the comfort and security of you !! or such as ... the Handler is the distraction  in and of himself - e'g they give non-verbal cues by accident , the scent of food on the hand , or a toy on the person. for  the threads owner.. IMO you must go back and reset the communication , picture/ outlook , mental constructs , the expectations  of the dog . make sure you arer absolutely correct in communication -- set the dog up to be absolutely corrrect in execution .. descipline when task is completely understood and the dog refuses to execute the exercise. again .. go back to fundamentals .. I also recc. change the name of the exercise .. i would no longer say 'sit' , use another word .. seems like the dog has another behavior associated with sit. be patient .. always patience.. a little little bit a day done solid is better than trying to get the whole thing down pat quickly !!