What can be done with dogs that lack prey drive? - Page 1

Today there are many sportive helpers that focus on prey drive to make the dogs look good and to make the handler feel good about his/her dog and the helper. These dogs are so high in prey drive they don't learn how to fight.

Who are they fighting? Why are they fighting?

Umm..what does that have to do with the title of this thread though?

i saw this on my leerburg dvd some dogs with very strong nerves and high prey drive and littlle defense get locked in prey so when they try get them into defense work they have to work so hard to make the dog to make him get on defnesive some people use stuff like flanking to bring them out


is that what you were talking about? at that point u kinda will wonder and wish u just bought the right dog, (dog with good defense good aggression) rather than try to make a dog into something that it naturally isnt JMHO my first dog was that type u would have to seriously beat him and hurt him to get him into defense

i would never do it to him and i never did it but he was just that type he had good nerves lots of prey NO defnese, he was who he was and we just let him be it a happy dog with no aggression, my current dog will get defensive if u talk give her a bad eye stare, or yell at her. I hope this is what  meant????? lol

title sounds like it should have been what can be done with dogs that lack aggression, fight or defense.?

Destiny, You hear that all the time . Dog won't go into defence, but has strong nerves. Get another trainer. Ace how many times did people come up to Jiri Novotny and say  "my dog won't go into defence" than 15 seconds later dog is in defence. Most good trainers that train protection dogs would just as soon the owner never screw around with a dog on sleeve personally while switching to defence. Some dogs also have tremendous amounts of play drive, misread as prey drive. Real prey drive should be motivated to catch and kill prey. Always deliberate and confident. A pup wolf, lion, dog usually chase anything that don't chase them. For play
Hank

well i have a female german sheperd she`s got a real play drive she can play football all day.but when it comws to prey she`s innocent as a lamb. she can`t kill a insect. she doesn``t eat raw meat.very choosy about food.
she`s aggresive on other dogs and  very good guarddog.......

the first order is : to really understand what the dog is about ... that can mean different things .. first i secon desert dog/  'hank'... forget about the word "drive' .. i know .. most of you on the forum still uise that word .. i stated that if you confine yourself to cliche words you will get in trouble .. yes Hank has a point .. mis-reading one motivation for another .. play vs a prey  behavior... 'prey is a category that  has a number of descriptive behaviors ,[ eyeing ,  stalking , chasing , pouncing, ambushing etc. ]. so when a pup is ambushing , chasing .. is it play potivation or prey ? ...
            now .. what constitues defense ? ...   that to presents  in a number of different behaviors ... my point is : Is one sure that a dog has no defence ? i have seen dogs agitated that just stood there and looked at you , not even a twinkle in the eye , not even a movement of a muscle .. then lower you reading of them and  instaneously BAM .. they are on you like a tiger !! some dogs have a different 'style' that must be recognized , .. other dogs have a different make-up or temperamnent...some confident dogs for example, it  may take more lot more stimulatyion and of the right kind for then to get defensive . [ pending what behavior you are looking for -- and don't forget : running away is a defensive behavior!!]--- another example .. i have seen GSDs at 6 -8 months that were looked at and defined as 'good for nothing ' , again 1.5 years old , somehow a light swich in their brain went on & the result : the dog would do you in . Meaning there are some potentials in dogs that for a while are latent !! we often do not have PATIENCE.
             so , i think it best to describe exactly the ' bent of the dog ' , read the dog , understand the dog as it relates to a specific behavior or set of behaviors.. ... remeber the best way to defend a punch .. is just simply move out of the way .. and let the other guy expend all it's energy .. animals don't expend energy or take on the possiblity of getting hurt needlessly .. so think what you mean by a dog  needing to be defensive . defense.  many dogs need a reason/ motivation to go into a defensive behavior .. others need little reason ..

alphapup play drive seems to be part of being a puppy, does this diminish as the dog gets older?

i want to hear more about your talk on dog macturity and what to expect after 18 months

destiny ... again .. if you will.. forget about the word 'drive' --it is way to limitting in understanding behavior !! .. case in point ///play : as with children .. play may seem as a way to have fun entertainment , pleasure - it is and it is not !! play to children is a very seriuos type too [it's  their business]. there are different aspects to play , such as imagining , mimicking .  --- So it is with dogs ..  i cannot empirically prove this but i just state dogs have feelings , emotions , thoughts  , motivations.. dogs know for example when they are laughed at .. they smile etc.. e.g i have a 13 week old pup .. she plays with her mom .. she is challenging at times and is quite combative .. they run together .. i see that running is fun but the combative play is seriuos ,..even with a harsh corection the pup will not relent .. she comes back harder, bites tenaciuosly !!  that  challenge by the pup is play but it also has a serious component.. it establishes rank order. so again .. one must understand the mind, heart and motives of the dog - THAT is what is important.
            life is like a box of chocolates .. you don't know exactly how a person or a dog will develop .. because there is a constant interaction of the duality of genetics and environmental/learning experiences .. even identical twins although genetically the same are very different people . BUT ... there are some insights .. the dam and the sire .. that is why i recc. knowing the dam and the sire ..[ this is the gripe i have about show placings -- it does not address the innate genetic attributes of the dog]. such as : is the dam /sire, hard, social , aggresive etc.. - another is knowing what attributes the dog portrays.. generally very submissive dogs i would not expect to be high in courage , dogs that are  more dependent don't tend to work away from their owners to a high degree. etc. . temeprsament can never be changerd ., the gentics are fixed .. character traits can be affected .. such as you can increase or decrese confidence. sometimes the individual pups in a litter can develop differentl;y .. i had two Ando Altenberger pups /same litter.. brother and sister .. the male loved to play .. he did bite work .well .. but it was play , a game , not serious .. as a pup up until now [ age 8] he is still juvenile .. but he has good watch & guard instincts ..not trianed for pers. protection.. his sister was Sch1 , i trained her too .. as she matured she became extraordianrlity protective of me , no question asked - she would defend me !!.. she was very very dominant , manipulative , assertive ! she had same parents but her temperament was a little different than her brother . . she had the same experiences but she matured differently . so you never know the outcome 100%. you just have to understand and read the dog.. and do the best you can .. some dogs mature faster than others .. gen , defense starts when the dog is mature enough to handle it psychologically , emotionally and physically .. that is different for each dog ..  i had dogs that matured at 3.5 years old .. , another doing police demo at 10 months .. again .. we must know the individual dog.

Another good post. Hank and APUP, sometimes I wish we could just sit at the "round table" for a weekend and pick brains. I'm somewhat new here and at times I guess I just take a few things for granted. Being around my "dog" buddies or working handlers. Not taking anything away from anyone no matter at what "level" of dogs you are at. Lots of times I see, (and yes, we have to start somewhere) but I see individuals think all GSDs are the same or will act, react the same. For me, if you have the ability to have more than one your learning curve is enhanced and time wise it is faster. To see multiple GSDs, at different, ages, different lines, different temperaments, styles, demeanors, etc., etc. really opens your eyes and brains.

For those that are new to GSDs, I would think you could establish some sort of mindset by watching videos, reading and yes even some clubs. Like Hank said, that information very true. In my eyes it is called "prey motivation" and we each have our visions/interpretations/perceptions. The simple act of something moving to stimulate the pup/dog into chasing/catching and even killing the object. If you have ever seen documentaries on say, wild cats........ we'll talk about cheetahs; FASTEST cat on the planet. Look at his size. He doesn't have the weight to back him up like a lion/lioness. So how does he do it? He chases the prey down and when he is just behind it he "trips" it up by the hind legs. Then goes for the throat. NOW, the cubs, they have to learn the same principle. It just doesn't happen, it has to be learned. So the mother will hold a small sized or baby say, gazelle, that the cubs can play with, (technically not play but learn, being trained). And so they build their motivation to one day kill for themselves. SURVIVAL!

So, my point, in the dog world "prey motivation" is established by what's already in the dog that needs to brought out and fine tuned with the help of a good helper, trainer. Maybe the dog is right on and that could be any age. But we can't look at a pup and think it doesn't have it because it's not acting like the next pup or the adult dog. It appears some want the whole package without putting in the effort/work. Either by them or the dog? And to reiterate what has been said a hundred times. "It's nice to want" but just because you want this dog to be this and that don't be heartbroken when the dog doesn't or can't live up to those expectations.  Just my thoughts.