What can be done with dogs that lack prey drive? - Page 2

A dog without prey is s#!t, a dog with little prey is toilet paper, and a dog that is total prey is an ass.

alboe .. a poignant post .. 20 = years ago .. more than that too.. my mentor taught well .. he stated .. if you want to understand dogs .. sit dwon , turn the volume off the TV , sit still and shut up ! and observe the 'wild animal kingdom ' show .. watch , observe and study !! this is what the ethologists do ... and then add on to that what the behaviorists bring to the table ..
            i like a lot of your posts .. and you are constantly striving to better yourself. so : a little secret ... deep down inside you know what you need to know ,,, the world has polluted us by manipultaing our mental constructs.. i liken that to our ability to not be able to ' think outside the box , bit' -- our minds have become obstructed !! dogs ARE like humans [ no wonder the gravitation ] BUT they are at the same time not human !! it is through understanding ourselves that we come to know the canine ... they have thoughts , as we do and like we do , they have emotions as we do and like we do ... they have needs like we do : they are social , they form relationships , they need to eat , to be safe , etc etc. they feel warmth /cold .. they know if they are luaghed at , they know trust and faithfulness...  the difference is that we are cerebral anbd they are instinctively tuned..each dog and person is unique . a product of the environment and genetics.. correct , no two peeople /dogs are alike .. there is an infinite number of possibilities . same as in a family - no two siblings are exactly alike .. so this is why my mantra is : always know what your dog is thinking /feeling/it's emotion and motivation .. how it uses it's insticts and what it is communicating to you .. and then communicvate back to the dog .. no magic .. no secret formula's .
                   to illistrate : yesterday i saw a dog ... very very insecure  the dog aggressed to all other dogs. uncomfortable at times with people . so ther dog lunges at another dog[ bad case of defensiveness/aggression to solve it's insecurity ]. the point : the ownder had no idea that just the lklo on her face , how she stood , how she held the leash , the uncertsunty and volume of her voice affected the dog - she had no notion ... she was contributing to making the dog worse !! and on top of that she so called'corrected the dog ' , which again she didn't realize THAT made the dog worse [ one would say 'put the dog into drive'. i sayt just intensifeied the dog's insecutiry .. that ius the point.. put yourself in the dog's place .. look , fell, observe the motivation , the behavior and what the dog is communicating? maybe a dog doesn't go into prey ... because it in simplicity is saying" gee that texture and shape is different , Hmm , i am not sure yet sabout that ?. sometimes working a dog the case can be that simple .. watch what the dog is saying !!

Thanks APUP,

Ole Merl Perkins, Omaha's Wild Kingdom. Loved that show. Tons of documentaries out also. Some of my favorites are the Dingos, (wild dogs), jackals/hyenas and wolves. The pack structure/mentality, the art of tracking, setting up the ambush, the thought process, strategy and implementation, the rank structure in the pack and what each one does to ensure the kill. Ensure survival.

Alphapup you said.....

i had two Ando Altenberger pups /same litter.. brother and sister .. the male loved to play .. he did bite work .well .. but it was play , a game , not serious .. as a pup up until now [ age 8] he is still juvenile .. but he has good watch & guard instincts ..not trianed for pers. protection.. his sister was Sch1 , i trained her too .. as she matured she became extraordianrlity protective of me , no question asked - she would defend me !!.. she was very very dominant , manipulative , assertive ! she had same parents but her temperament was a little different than her brother . . she had the same experiences but she matured differently . so you never know the outcome 100%. you just have to understand and read the dog.. and do the best you can .. some dogs mature faster than others .. gen , defense starts when the dog is mature enough to handle it psychologically , emotionally and physically .. that is different for each dog ..  i had dogs that matured at 3.5 years old .. , another doing police demo at 10 months .. again .. we must know the individual dog.

With your example, do you think that since the brother didn't have the traits the sister had, would you say genetically the the females in that litter got passed on that gene and it may have been a hit or miss on the males?  Were you able to find out about the rest of the littermates to see how they developed? 

My thinking is, you had both dogs from the same age, raised the same (same enviornment) BUT one turned out different than the other in terms of protectiveness, dominance, etc.  Genetically then there is a gene that was passed tot he females and maybe the males didn't get it or only half of the males got it.

Understand where im coming from?

The post is; Today there are many sportive helpers that focus on prey drive to make the dogs look good and to make the handler feel good about his/her dog and the helper. These dogs are so high in prey drive they don't learn how to fight.

This is a statement, not a question. What are you looking for or asking?


Kim

a commentary .. : don 't knock prey behaviors .. i have had some GSDs very very high inn prey , lower defense as you would describe .. but this is the problem .. we must look at the behavioral attributes .. some of these dogs would rock my 1 ton truck because of watch and guard instincts .. they are very intimidating to the public in this respect.. i had  gsd with high defense .. in a blink of an eye in the correct context and with thew correct minset .. they would bite you !! - this is not always best as in these dogs i preach .. one better have 100% absolute verbal and overall CONTROL !! and with the notion : a canine is Never Never to uindertake any action upon itself[ unless intentionally taught to otherwise]. so if your dog does lack prey mm be careful if you see high defense genetics.. if a dog does not have prey ... then it doesn't have it .. you can't make the dog what it is not .. but that is different than a dog with prey that just doesn't show it or have it ellicited -from which ypou can bringout the potential from within!!
                     RE: my Ando progeny .. i just bred the  male  with a Larus von Batu grandaughter .. HUH ../ i kept a female .... she is a clone of the father's sister !! dominant , assertive , full of fire .. a biting shark .. i admit .. the canines always amaze me .. the sister in respects , strucure , genetics , temperament seem to all present in the daughter. so it appears , the Ando sister did not just have what the brother didn't project !

Quote: i saw this on my leerburg dvd some dogs with very strong nerves and high prey drive and littlle defense get locked in prey so when they try get them into defense work they have to work so hard to make the dog to make him get on defnesive some people use stuff like flanking to bring them out

I would not use those tapes as a reference to anything. LOL 

I hear of this "problem" and there is always the reality that "they" the "trainers" cannot see that there is no issue. Defense is a fear based reaction. If the dog doesn't see you as a threat, then, guess what, he is not going to go there.

I have no need for "threat displays" although people really do think that the dog is way better for doing so. I have worked enough dogs, that I have worked dogs that are ALL threat display. They are not going to bite. That is when you see how absolutely useless it is.

I could care less, and way to many people waste so much time teaching a dog to show his teeth and what not. 

no ,, jeff that is not entirely true .. how can i liken this : football players 'defend' the goal line .. but they can do that without being fearful .. yet .. they can do thatg with a sense of confidence , asssurity , thinking that they are in control etc. etc. ... So it can be with a canine .. this is why i do not like the terms 'prey drive' , defensive drive .. because it does not address what a dog is thinking , feeling , the emotion and the motivation .. a dog can defend an article a basket , brief case or a Sch sleeve ,  a car / a home and NOT BE IN FEAR !! this reminds me of a behavioral problem i often see .. a dog protecting it's owner because it has the mindset , the confidence that it is in charge , can handle the situation [ the owner is not , and cannot . again -- this does not have to have it's origins in fear but the exact opposite of fear .. that is not to dismiss that a dog cannot behave from fear or concearn , or insecurity , or uneasiness - it often can and will .  ,,, that is true too .
                   and so .. as i have seen and wrote about .. there is a difference in the dog feeling insecure  and feeling  that itself is threatened by someone and feeling that  it has to defend itself from someone i.e. -self preservation  as opposed to a dog seeing the context /situation as a threat  and dealing with the situation out of confidence , security [ not ever even thinking that it will\might  succumb or get injured ] and itfeels /thinks it has complete control .. just my opinion.
            so if one disagrees then i ask you to think  : if a police dog see a threat to his  fellow officer and defends him  .. do you think the dog is so threatend , fearful  [in defensive drive ? as you folks always utter ]  and that is why it goes to the rescue ?? does one think the dog defends because it is afraid ??

Alpha, if it is not threatened, why would it defend the goal-line? Honestly? There is always a fear/threat that something may happen or courage wouldn't be a term and the dog wouldn't feel a need to protect. If there wasn't a fear or threat, the dog would just bite everyone for no reason? Yeah! I know what you are saying about owning a situation, but that is a confident dog in the face of a threat/fear.

Quote: no ,, jeff that is not entirely true

Ok.

I think I know of one helper in the last good God 15 or more years that could put the fear of God into a dog. Most have to slash around with the whip, and even then, you are seeing frustration more than defense with good dogs.

Just because people put on sleeves and suits doesn't mean they actually have any presence at all. Most people could not list the signs that a dog is about to run if they had to. "Positive" methods rule the day. Hell, I read here about people talking how they are only working a dog in prey. That amazes me. Really. The fact of the matter is that even when I am not trying to work a dog in defense, I still see flashes of it. If you can work a dog entirely in prey, more than likely you have no presence to begin with. 

Defense is fear based. 

Since you want to use people or sports to illustrate things, I cannot tell you how many people I have met that are wrestlers that get off on fear. That is what makes them tick. They will go after anyone that scares them. They will push that person until they melt, or fight.

Dogs have forward reactions to fear, passive reactions to fear, and flight response to fear. However, use the word fear, and people start shitting themselves to explain how the dog is not afraid.

A strong nerved prey dog, what has been termed "locked in prey" was trained this way, either on purpose, or he has helpers that have no presence. There are a lot of them out there. I cannot tell you how many times I have went to work a dog and the dog would not bite nearly as well, and was clearly nervous about working on me. I was doing nothing that should elicit that response. 

I have a hard time getting pups to work with me, as they will chase the rag, but come off and submit if I am not careful. Breed doesn't matter. 

This is why I say that "locked in prey" can be a training problem. If you cannot make a dog believe, all the whipping in the world is not going to help your cause. That, and how many owners would put up with that. LOL