What can be done with dogs that lack prey drive? - Page 3

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so if one disagrees then i ask you to think  : if a police dog see a threat to his  fellow officer and defends him  .. do you think the dog is so threatend , fearful  [in defensive drive ? as you folks always utter ]  and that is why it goes to the rescue ?? does one think the dog defends because it is afraid ??

I guess all that fancy talk of conditioned reinforcers went over your head like they do mine. Ever seen a dog working the B&H and the handler is popping the shit out of the dog with the pinch ? Well, how the fuck does that work ? HA HA It is a correction............... or is it ? How many times is a negative followed by a strong positive, before it is no longer really a negative ? You can see this in the back transport as well. The dog heeled beautifully in the OB phase, and here the dog is all forged up, leaning into the handler. The handler gave the command fuss didn't he ? Well, WTF is that all about ?

And lastly, I find this statement retarded for the following reason; The threat was made on the police officer, NOT THE DOG.  Why would the dog see that and go into defense ????? This is why learning to read a dog from someone that ACTUALLY can do it, is so important. Other wise, you are all fuckled up when you have to use the correct terminology.

Alpha, you are always talking about dropping the terms and just talk about the dog, what he's thinking, feeling, what his motivation is, etc, etc. Well when a dog goes to protect, and I don't care if it is the most dominant alpha dog in the world, he has to feal threatened, challenged, fear or he wouldn't react. Even the thought of losing status falls under that catagory. I agree with JEFF and have said the same for a while. People get all bothered when you say the dog has fear. The only police officer I have seen without fear, was Robocop. Otherwise, they'd all die.

ok chaz .. think of what you write .. let's say :  you are fearful [ and truely fearful in the definition of fear]... in your right mind .. would you opt to go into a fight being in a mental and physical stagte of being afraid ,, a fight that would possibly severely or permanantly injure you .. or cost you ,,  your life ??    ...... IMO the first  inherent , genetic pre-programmed intstinct  , in a sound person or canine , is .. self preservation .. /  now common sense . did you ever hear that expression : " he that runs away .. lives to fight another day " ? .  yes .. fear can ellicit fright , flight or fright .. BUT what i enuncated is that fear does not have to always lead to defend and defending isn't always based in fear. IF at times / in certain conmtexts you FEAR either you are unsound or cerebrally stupid to put yourself into a fight .. he that fears most surely looses anyway./ does a pack of wolves  defend it's territory because the pack fears.. not IMO .. they control the land because it contains the resources to it's survival .. thier defense-what does that have to do with fear ?? now if you put  aleash on a dog and put it into a situation that it has only one option , that is you take away all other options . what do ytouy expect an animal to do ? defend it'a life or not ... that case irrelevent iof you fear or not .. your life depends on it .. we can philosophise .. BUT MY POINT IS .. don't talk in cliche terms because  1.there is a lot more than what meets the eye and 2. not everything is as what it seems to be .. IMO best look at the animal and the behavior that it exihbits in a particular context .. THAT is what is important.

Please learn to hit the return key.

I cannot make it any simpler than I did. Maybe some one else can.

You are mixing human emotion and the capability to reason into what a dog thinks. Doesn't work.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear  Maybe that will help you.

You appear to be describing fear as an absolute, without any variables. That would be avoidance.

Wolves are not dogs, and that has been proven over and over and over. Not sure where you were going with that. 

Other than that, your post is a lot of excess verbage. 

Threads like this one makes you think. My thoughts are I'm not sure that anyone is wrong, totally. I read all the responses and can understand the majority of points. In my eyes there is a little conflict in our thoughts about humans and dogs. And since we as humans can think, (not sure of the proper word(s) to use) at so many levels, so many variables, so many thought processes.

Now, in all honesty we do not know how a dog REALLY thinks. Some individuals have a better idea than others. In my eyes the dog still has some thoughts/instinct of an animal to an extent but the majority of the dogs are individuals so they do not think in the aspect of a pack.... or pack survival.

If we talk of fear and the reaction to it, through it and after it? (we're all going to have are own versions, some will think along the same lines and some won't). We can try and talk about dogs and humans in the same thought, and that what's gets us in trouble at times. But in all honesty it's all we have at times to go on.

I'll talk of a dog in general, in my eyes he is different if he is one or in a pack. If he is one his "winning" and it doesn't always have to be a "fight" totally depends on what he knows...... his training.......his confidence. For a pack structure, that dog has a purpose  that along with the others make up a "combined effort" for a positive outcome; food, defense of colony, young and survival.

Now, personally, as a former LEO I was/am a light 190#. And at times, (due to our training/demeanor) we don't like to say "FEAR", so we usually say, "nervous", "cautious" or "uncomfortable". For fear, yes we feel it, we just don't show it if we can help it, for ourselves, those around us in a situation, and for the times we are in a confrontation with a subject or more than one. I have taken on subjects up to 350# and at times multiple subjects. So, (HUMAN SPEAKING OF COURSE), at the moment there was no time for fear. Act or react. But for knowledge, experience and training involved, that "controlled" the situation and contributed to the outcome. Now for the everyday person with no knowledge, experience and training I would guess to say that the situation would be totally different, maybe the opposite.

So, if we put the same scenario into a dog's life I would think that a dog would act or react significantly different with knowledge, experience and training. And since dogs think differently then humans just the mere fact of the dog getting accustomed to the home, the pack, (family) he (some) will defend even with no training due to genetics and instinct.

Jeff ... dogs DO HAVE EMOTION .. and they CAN THINK !!  no they are not human .. but they are like human... and a threat , a threatening situation is notg synonymous with fear ...  there is a differentiasl .. maybe we see  things in terms differently .. i understand what you are saying .. it is not my intention  to negate your commentary . but to expound upon it .. if a police dog was in fear or ' threats elicited fear  , even though defending .. would or could that dog  work ? . how could you depend on a dog that may fear or think it be reliable to risk  your life on if a threat resulted in a dog that feared ?? ? ..  experience can change the outlook of dogs .. such that a threat , i mean a blatant threat is not significant .. either you have to say " well now the dog didn't percieve that as a threat [ but a threat is a threat- even pointing a finger is acknlowledged by a dog as a threat] and therfore wasn't threatened OR the dog does acknowledge that as a threat but was made a to think or feel a certain way about that threat [ uncomfortable , insecure , unsure , FEARFUL - somehtin g , it has to feel / think something ].  there is a difference as to a person or animal FEELING threatend and that result is fear   AS opposed to a threatening Situation , of which a dog may acknowledge the threat , but not feel threatned.
      my pers. protection dog was taught qhat a threat was  [ or was not]..  if you threatend me .. do you on your life think that dog would be afraid of you .. hell no .. he was trained to take you out , pistol in hand , gun shooting at him mind you !! a stick hit , any of those ,  a threat ? he would go right through all that , take the hit on top of the rest . a threat does not contstitue a fear reaction in and of itself[ and may not even malke a dop uncomfortable].
                             if a dog feels threatned , it can be pushed into many a type  of feeling[s ] and responses , from feeling uncomfortable , insecure , unsure , to  Blatant Fear ... and there are a multitude of behavioral reactions or responses .. a dog uncomfortable need not be a 'fearful dog'. not all dogs are alike , they don't all feel the same , think the same , aren't motivated the same  .. it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THINKING HUMAN .. it has to do with watching and 'in seeing ' into the dog .. 
         th reason i go on about this ... IF you do not know what a dog is thinking , feeling , the  motives  .. how in the world is one ever going to connect and understand that animal ??

Alpha, so your wolfpack just defend their territory "just because"? There is no "fear" or threat that those other wolves will take over? Interesting! So in essence, we shoukd start using Golden Retrievers for guard work because they are so confident with people? I know you love terms, so I'll ask you, do you know the definition of "courage"? What is courage, and why is it so important in working dogs? When you face a scary monster under your bed, what do you do?

Quote:  i understand what you are saying .. it is not my intention  to negate your commentary . but to expound upon it .. if a police dog was in fear or ' threats elicited fear  , even though defending .. would or could that dog  work ? . how could you depend on a dog that may fear or think it be reliable to risk  your life on if a threat resulted in a dog that feared ?? ?

You tell me that you understand what I am saying, and then proceed to show me that you do not. Let me tell you the word that you should have used in that statement. Avoidance.

I am not talking about avoidance. I am talking about fear. Go back and read the above statement and fill in fear with avoidance. LOL 

Defense is a fear based drive. Otherwise, why is the dog showing his teeth ? When you get to the upper reaches of defense, you hit a threshold for avoidance. All dogs have that threshold. You push them hard enough, and they go into avoidance. Most helpers I have seen have very little skill in using defense to build a dog up. Most of the people I work with, do not bother with defense, as the whole balancing thing is just stupid. The dog is either going to bite, or not. Some actually take a few times before they are able to do this. 

If you are around dogs a long time, at some point you just want the dog to bite when you say bite, and if he cannot do it, then you just don't waste your time with him. Building a dog is ego driven. Reality for me, is that the dog has to love to bite. LOVE TO BITE. If you have to bother with all the whipping and running and whipping and running, then really, that is where you do not want to put your life on the line, and really, never should have all that faith. It is a dog. 

Jeff, You are right in that last paragraph. If it ain't there you can't put it there. It's genetic. And because I would say about 90 or better percent of dogs have really never been tested in defense to a significant amount to know the degree of courage their dogs have. Sure they are tested, how ? a clacker stick, leather stick, a evil eye. We see all the time dogs that will shy away from it , and a good trainer spots it and because of his ability to camouflage it by moving with the dog as he moves away from it, that the dog is just staying with the decoy.
   While fear is the trigger to defense, a dog should never move into defense in that same state, if he does he won't be there long. He should be confident he can win to the point he doesn't. If you read all the posts from dog owners, they all have dogs that are strong on courage, my thought most are until it is tested, and then there aren't to many. 
   Courage is what should be measured when it comes to defense, not the degree of fear that triggers it. Then you have to start measuring sharpness and hardness, All inherant. 
   We give ourselves to much credit in the developement of good dogs. If it isn't there to start with You can't put it there.
Hank

desert dog .. yes .. we are what we are .. genetic and a product of our genes and the environmental influence.. Ok ...jeff.. nice converstaion ..
                        I once thought 30 years ago as you .. yes i acknowledge what you are saying ..i understand the terminology as well as anyone on the earth ..  as stated , i am not negating .. now my verse is for those reading .. not intention of argument ..i want to let other peole open up their thoughts
                        So .. ok hank just stated .. defense can come from acting courageous .. so ... ? is that fear ?? . how can one be fearful and ccourageous at the same time - that is like a Bipolar state ? !!? and Hank just wrote : meaning: if the dog is not confident he won't stay in defense. yet a confident dog can stay ion defense , which is not considered an extinguishable behavior , unlike prey .
                        you say a ' defense drive [ i dislike that word drive!!] is based in  fear > so consider this :    two animals are engagerd like that word vs fight. it is mating season ... so are they engaged becxause they fear each other .. is that why they are defending their land , their harem ??  because they fear each other ... OR do they hjave other agenda's other than thinking they are afraind .. do t other motivations not even realted to 'fear'?  do you think they are more concearned about reproduction ??  encountering /  fighting ,[ although i rather not use that word] , fear .. do you think that is their thought , emotion , state of mind , ? 
                        ok .. someone trows a punch at me .. i take a step back and turn .. the punch misses ... So do you call this ' avoidance behavior ' , fear .. or just someone using their head ..beacuse one takes a step back .. that is fear ?? ok - instead of stepping back i just blocked the punch .. a defensive move .. is that fear ??  last option .. i simultaneously block and dtrike the opponents face exactly at the same time ?? cant be swtiching drives prey / defense ..is it offense or defense // how about both at the same time  or neither .. another dimension of a behavioral response ??
        just words to ponder .. fear creates : fight , flight , fright .... but does all fight have to originate in a dog being fear ? Now fear is a physiological response that can minifesat in a behavioral response
but to say a certain behavior always eminates from a single source is /.. well ...                                   
          my point as usual [ for readers ] : if you limit oneself to categorical terms .. prey / defense / this or that .. in place of reading the state , mindset , emotion , feeling , moivation with in a specifc context .... you will assuredly mislead yourself in understanding the dog/ an animal  .. whether you doscuss prey / defense / fight / play " drive" .. drive is to confining in understanding animals !! if you contemplate what i am writing .. you can decide for yourself about animal behaviorsim ..