What can be done with dogs that lack prey drive? - Page 4

Alphapup, just a correction on my statement. The courage to move through fear should never be "Acting" courageous. He should move past fear and be working in courage not in fear. That is the problem, not all but most "Act" couragous and really are not. Sometimes a dog can go hard and "Act" like the most courageous thing on earth and really be shut down from fear. Weak bites, half hearted attacks and weak fight, but because he continues in that state we see it as courage when in reality,it is the fear that causes him to weaken. Look at some of the old videos of military and Border patrol dogs that had tenacious fight. They fought to win not just survive.
  That is genetic. Yes confidence can be helped , and the way most dogs are used now days probably good enough for their intended purpose. But I wouldn't want to go to war with a dog I had to "Make".
  2= I never said defense was based on fear, fear is only what triggers it
Defense is the ability to move past fear. Real defense should never be based on fear but ,confidence. Please understand what I'm saying, even if you disagree.
  A dog can be full of fear and stay in defense until he quits or runs off, in fact always will. He has no where else to go.
Hank

One thing to add about the last statement, just because the fearfull dog moves into defense does not make him a courageous dog. His degree of defense will only be based upon, his desire to win
Hank

Hank .. yes i agree with what you say .. but i added .. meaning: because a dog will go into defense does not mean always that  the defending  arose from fear [ i don't mean concearn , uncertainty .. i mean outright FEAR].. as you stated some dogs have a genetic bent .. they have extraordianry high aggression or high hardness or high thresholds for stress [ ie takes a lot to stress these dogs] , for one reason they can have very hjigh suspicion levels.. yes like military dogs .. they are courageuos and handle the attack .. they SEE a THREAT [ threatening situation ] , not meaning they feel threatened necessarily !!. and i am not talking about a dog that you can help teach / give experience[ yes we can help a dog overcome , bring him while uncomfortable to his maximum level and give him success before he bails / fails ].. i agree ] .... we can show them a way  to overcome  fear..that is different than other dogs that have no fear but defend.  ie did one ever train a [ good !!!] Akita , or the dogs th KGB used ?? if you said no .. i would say .. you almost wouldn't have to .. they are so naturally defensive , almost to the point of killing machines you don't have to .. they defend and i think if you saw them .. you would agree these dogs defend without fear OR  needing protection work like we do GSDS - they almost need no training as we do our GSDs..  and i think you would be amazed at the lack of fear in them & their natural defense,  innate makeup !! if you don't beleive me .. then my advice .. don't  test them ..
           Hank you did not say that  defense was base on fear .. i beleive , unless i misread , jeff ohlsen had written that a few posts back .. that is what i am addressing. if i misread that line . i apologize .. but i stand on my outlooks .

Yes, I read a book, I couldn't begin to tell you the name of it about a Russian gov. run kennel where they were breeding hybred dogs for military and swat squads for the lack of the correct word, that are real extreme in aggession. I think we will see more countries as crime and fighting all over the world escalates doing the same thing.
Hank

Quote: 

Courage is what should be measured when it comes to defense, not the degree of fear that triggers it. Then you have to start measuring sharpness and hardness, All inherant.     We give ourselves to much credit in the developement of good dogs. If it isn't there to start with You can't put it there. Hank

Ok, 1st guy likes jumping out of planes. 2nd guy is scared to death, and pisses himself every time he jumps. Who has courage ?

Quote: While fear is the trigger to defense, a dog should never move into defense in that same state, if he does he won't be there long. He should be confident he can win to the point he doesn't. If you read all the posts from dog owners, they all have dogs that are strong on courage, my thought most are until it is tested, and then there aren't to many. 

I am not a tester. Not anymore. Whatever a decoy can do to my dog in a trial legally is all I need to see. What I would caution, is that many people read this stuff, do not really understand or misinterpret what is said and do stupid shit to their dog. There are plenty of dogs out there that do not respond to defense, simply because they do not believe the helper is a threat.

Then, because the helper, or handler feels a "need" to "balance" the dog, spend way to much time trying to do so. A lot of new people seem to think that a high prey dog is not balanced, and from what I read, they think that the dog is kinda mental. If a dog is confident, loves to bite, and has high prey, there is no need to waste time "balancing" the dog. The dog will either do the job, or it will not, and if it is a PP dog, or PSD, until the dog has proven himself, no one should place their lives in it's hands.

Me, I do sport. I do not need all this whipping. If the dog needs that, then it's thresholds are too high, and it is not going to do well in the sport that I participate in.

Jeff ,I understand and agree with you, I am not in to whipping dogs ,tying them out and throwing rocks at them until they get where they quit worrying about getting hit. There are better ways of testing courage without all that. And to your point most dogs never get put in a position to matter. But it is still genetic so you are testing to see what is inherantly already there. And there are ways of testing without touching the dog, as done at the Pohranicni Straze when it was going.

  And Like you if it isn't there when he is born, I don't want him.

As far as jumping out of a plane, For years I flew all over Alaska working pipeline in planes that were pure junk, but never flew in one I thought I'd want to jump out of. Guy 2 took more courage to jump if he made the choice himself. If he was kicked out screaming, then #1.

And you are right alot of dogs never see a decoy as a threat

Hank

i second that hank ..  we test dogs , without even a threat and also by stripping the context of environmental influence [ and yes that can be done is a proven]., let alone even come close to touching a dog !  everything about a caniner is genetic  and infuenced by learning and the environment . Hank is correct .. if the dog does not have certain attributes innately then you can't put it there or make the dog what it is not. - maybe dogs don't see the decoy as a threat-so there is no threat [ in their reality] ,  seeing a threat and feeling a threat are two entirely subjective factors.   not prudent to assume that because you threten a dog , it out to be and feel threatened.  what you think is a threatening person and what i think is very different.. our genetic makeup , our thoughts , our experiences are all very different.  Again my point .. if you approached me with a knife .. i am not threatend by you , the situation may be from the outside  observer appearing that way .. but it is threat if i feel threatened or interpret it as threatening. some people don't threaten easy nor do some dogs.. ALL dogs have a personal space defined. some dogs are in the same context threatned 25 yards away and the same scenario/ all factors remaining equal ,  a different dog only thinks/feels  it is threatend if you are 12 inches from it .. others , ther eis no thrat at all.  this is why i state forget drive.. look at what the dog is thinking and feeling as it behaves .. experience and environment have an extraordianry influence .. case in point if you raise a hand to a dog and it never gets hit .. then the dog may never come to feel or even think  that a raised  hand is a threat nor feel threatend .. same with stick training and cxonditioning .. you casn teach the dog a stick IS NOT threaterning - when the decoy approaches with the stick .. do you expect the dog to be fearful / defend ??. so are you going to say " this dog has no defense [ geneitc trait ]  " ? !! and let's remember :  dogs are context specific learners and they are very very poor generalizers as compared to other animals !!  so don't assume because you think something is threatening that it automatically is to the dog !! ad nauseum .. be careful of cliches , more important to read the context , the thoughts , feelings of the dog .. forget about is the dog in defense /prey  drive !!.. look and observe , the DOG ALWAYS TELLS YOU WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW.. and it has all the solutions to problems in trianing.
             ok .. i have another thought for the readers . : a GSD high in aggression , high in hardness .. i have worked them , seen them .. and some of them ..  they wouldn't bat an eye to hesitate  to turn around and tag the handler even when corrected  . so given the previous posted statement," defense is based in fear" , i guess the dog that tags /bites it's handler is in fear and decided to defend itself ? .. i guess by some previous posts .. that would have nothing to do with the dog thinking it was superior in rank .. nothing to do with the dog  having no qualms about vehemently expressing his protest, no consideration that the dog undoubtedly feels and thinks that it is in control and is going to let you know it ..  if one wishes to continue to think ALL defensive behavioral responses originate from fear .. good luck .. if you wish to categorize & confine  behavior with general , vague terms like this or that "drives"  .. que sera sera ..

My points also. I think mostly all good points, allot of personal experiences. In my eyes it goes back to "What do you want this dog to do, to be, to become? In some aspects you can think of somewhat same reactions... humans...dogs. For instance when we talk "FEAR" or "THREAT". Say a martial arts  trained individual, seasoned. His perception/outlook totally different than the individual who has never been in a fight. Or unfortunately the individual that was always picked on. Now the dogs, I would think at one time or another we have all seen unfortunately the dog that when you either enter the room or it's presence the dog either hits the wall and exits the room or just doesn't act like a dog in your presence, cowers, hugs the floor or shuts down per se. Now there could be many reasons for these actions.

In the 80's there was a series of videos, "Faces of Death" and one of the videos showed a, I believe junkyard or auto lot, fenced in with guard dogs. I think three, four or five. I believe all were GSDs. Two teens climbed the fence and were inside. On the edge of the screen you see these two running for their lives for the fence. The first one makes it over. The second got up on the fence but the dogs grab a hold of his leg and pull him down and then it's over. Those dogs had a job to do, (even though it appeared extreme) and loved it and would do it every time I would think by what I saw. I have never owned dogs like those. I have seen some on the fields and a couple of my buds have a dog or two like those. Myself, along with a decoy have been bitten by one.

My first service dog was a Mal. and boy, at times I was cautious of/with that dog. I could be a couple of inches away and he would be teeth slashing and growling only  a couple inches away from my face. We were still learning each other but I was the only one that could be around that dog, close proximity. You couldn't come near the vehicle, and another handler with their dog couldn't come near the vehicle or us!  

I had a buddy that had to be kicked out most of the time. No screaming. He still got on the plane shaking like a leaf every time we jumped. I actually enjoy jumping, and it is tallest to smallest, so I had to be in the back. Used to unhook and knock past people to jump. He was the guy with courage. He could have just said no, and got a transfer out. So easy, but he did it despite the vomiting and having to wear depends, and having to get kicked in the ass every time.

The other thing is many dogs will never be truly tested, as they are in drive when all the goofy shit is going on. Then, we have lowered the bar in sports, so that people can have success, and dogs don't run and embarrass handlers. God forbid fluffy runs off in a trail. 

Defense, and the pressure that is put on the dog through it, is something that I just don't think that too many people understand, and they damn sure don't want their helper making fluffy have the shits every time after training. 

I saw a car advertisement that said "genetic" engineering. I use this to illustrate how many people alter reality to fit their opinion of what things should be, and stick their head in the sand when reality is shown to them. I watched fear factor, and some short fat kid was telling everyone how he "had this" and how he was going to put the smack down on _____ whatever the kids name was.

Then, reality bit him in the ass. He had to drop into the water, and couldn't swim. Yet he was willing to run his mouth like that, and was so scared, he hung on to the helicopter way too long, finally dropping because he couldn't hold on anymore.

They had to save him.

This is how I see a lot of dog people. It is a dog, and you should train it to the best of your ability, as that is what is "PC" to say. I say have the helper put some pressure, and see if your dog melts. Hell, see if your helper even knows how to put pressure on the dog. Whipping is not pressure, it is frustration. LOL

And as a final note, I have made dogs bite. Just went out and explained to the dog with pain, that the only place you will ever be safe on this field is on that sleeve. You will do what I say, or all hell will break loose. 

Words like defense, and prey pretty much no longer matter when you figure out how to make a dog bite. Some even didn't want to out, further faking people out. 

Try and come up with some terms to describe what the dogs "feelings" were. It damn sure was not fear of the helper that took the dog down the field.