What can be done with dogs that lack prey drive? - Page 5

what can be done for a dog lacking prey > if you answer try defense.... then caution ..
          a new police officer  once showed me a dog he was interested in .. i looked and i told him no !! the dog did not feel as it should doing the work .. 8 people looked at a video of this dog defending .. not one saw what i stated as my position .. we re-played the video ... and i told them what the dog was saying through it's behavior and changes of emotion and expression , which were of the most subtle that unless an eye was trained you would no doubt miss them .. liken this to a person taking a lie detector test .. everything , everything looks normal , but not to the detector. the electrodes pick up something not readily apparent !! again at first glance they thought he worked great in defense.. the dog  didn't. i showed them the change in the dogs micro expressions .. do you understand why i pontificate about defense work and the way we describe behavior .. they were thinking  prey vs defense drives and missed the whole importance of the work . they looked at  what was going on but could not understand the dog .. if you use 'defense ' and don't understand the dog  you will make mistakes .. this dog was actually made worse by the training and someone could have had a better dog with better training !! tragic !!.
                  for those that don't depend on what a dog is feeling .. let me state this to you : a dog worked in so called , by others terminology , prey vs defense ,   has in those different drives [, i say rather thoughts , feelings , emotions ].. DIFFERENT areas of the brain stimulated .. the behaviors / emotions or outwardness espression may look the same .. but they are not !! what si goping on in the dog's head is not the same .. canines have the same areas of brains we do .. they have emotion centers exctly as we do  .. the whole neurochemistry , the neurological effects vastly  are  different as they translate to behavior for differnt emotion , drives. ....again if you opt for defense traing wwhen no prey is recognized &  get into fear / defense  .. you are really effecting /affecting the dog's head and overall make-up.. so those of you that have the outlook :  emotion in dogs is hogwash , that it doesn't think and just  takes orders from you .. you best re-evaluate your outlook.  if you have someone opting for defense on your dog for training .. be very aware that that person knows your dog and what the heck he is doing use the damage may not be obvious or readily apparent .  just as in the officer story [above] - his inability to even see that damged dog !!and the damage can be irreversible .. once those synapsis [ in the brain]are made the wrong way and for the wrong reasons , then ,  good luck !! i personally don't care about how other people train .. i accept differences of views and have shared some of mine .. so think and have fun training.. AP

Post the video.

I believe if we narrow down the topic to "defense of the handler" then perhaps everyone would agree that fear or worry is the precipice for defence work.  It is not about defending territory or food resource. 

A dog lacking in prey would not be suitable for defence training although I have seen a few schutzhund club perservere to try to make the dog look good (as Hank so rightly described)  Frankly it is unfair to the dog (as AP has also stated).  I rather schutzhund clubs who have these kind of dogs in training be upfront and honest to let the owners know rather than subjecting those dogs to situation uncomfortable to them.

In "defence of the handler" the training should incorporate some element of fear/ worry otherwise how does the dog overcome whatever thrown at it to become confident and courageous?

Not to missed out on Jeff O and Chaz, I am sure you both have stated the same. :)

jeff . if you are referencing the video i discussed ., that was 8 years ago .. i have been training many a years .. be happy to share a lot more stories with you all . and i will share for again readers .. it IS NOT body language that you are concearned with alone .. IT IS the CHNANGES in body language that IS MORE IMPORTANT .. how again can i liken this : if you are ever interrogated .. just a slight wrinkle in your face will disclose your emotion and from that ,  tell tale signs from which one can draw an inferences-  as to what you are thinking .. we are congruent in that rerspect. not to mention dogs do talk .. the pitch , tone, frequency , cadence of their vocalizations are another clue .. [ the experienced people , already know what stating ].
        now another thought : we know we can take a dog that is unsure , concrearned [ ? if you want to say in fear, deosn't have to be fear] , put pressure on it , and before it bails , make the dog succesful  i.e. - give it the bite  and the helper surrenders. / some would say from fear the defense originates.. in that case .maybe... . ok .. BUT with constant training .. the dog's builds confidence and courage ... the ability to deal with stress has been altered in that context. the genetics are always fixed , never changed .. BUT the CHARACTER or the dog has been effected and affected by the environment/learning . SO after much training/experience  at some point when that event occurs the dog defends .. so did the dog defend from insecurity , unsureness , ?  fear ? that is ? did the behavior become manifest from fear , did fear create the defense. NO .. the dog has changes .. [ as stated a dog is a product of genetics and environment.]you changed the dog , he learned from learning skill came confidence !!].. his state before  that time and during has changed . he developed the capacity / courage to engage [ he may genmtically not be the bravest / most courageuos ]   .. that is not defense originatring from fear- if done correctly .. this is the goal of defense training .. not to have the dog think it always has to 'fight for it's life' , that it is a survival issue.. that is fear! , when you have to think and feel that you have to fight for your life as opposed to have learned that you can handle the situation succesfully , without harm or death , and that you are in control .
           OK - in reply to : "the sfaest place in the world is on the sleeve "   _ great .. just great !! create more problems. i had a friend come to me  10 years ago . good dog , wouldn't come off the bite /sleeve. !! he aslked me to work the dog and help him .. he explained : gee i did endless 'out' teaching with him , i throw the ball , he immediately outs , i played tug , he immediately 'outs' . " he knows 'out".. so we gave him a bite on a sleeve - dog wouldn't out , physical prerssure  from the owner ., dog wouldn't out !! WHY ??? Beacuse on the sleeve the dog felt safe !! i explained that to the owner. in the dog's head " if i let go i'll get the heck kicked out of me " in respects . i fail . i am not secure or sure what comes tro be if i let go  !' again . do you see why it is more important to know what the dog is thinking and feeling ! i didn't care what ' drive the dog was in" i had to know why the dog was doing what it was doing " !! that led me to the solution to clean that up , which is based on changing the dog's outlook that it could go from one behavior [on the sleeve] to another behavior ,  sit /guard and be safe ./ . So great .. teach that the safest place is on the sleeve and create big problems . PS... obviously this led to a control problem for the owner too .. h

So you don't have access to that video ?

no jeff .. i would gladly share it .. but years ago .. i have no idea from where he was going to buy that dog !! i trained and worked state police dogs - what i can add after having brought other behaviorists to view that video .. we all were in agreement.  so . i forgot about that site long ago  as i wasn't impressed with that dog in the video .. sorry . 
                        ps .. i know you are experienced and by my specutlation .. i think you would have derived  the same conclusion as i did about that dog.

THANK YOU moderators for allowing my long posts - this is one of the most important topics for protection training !!
                consider for thought : i had a friend with a 25 week pup ..  for your sake i will use your lingo [ drive]. i told him to work the dog in prey .. he had a hard time . so he opted for .. another drive .. cal it play ?? cal it somethiong else ? .. you know what i say .. anyway : 
                he played [ in his words]  keep away .. placed the object on the ground and reached for it to see who got the tug .. him or the dog !! i firmly stated to him STOP . ! he turned and arrogantly commented . i shut up . you can't fill a head already filled with thoughts . i might just as well spit into the wind . 1.5 years he trained with someone else .. i never said a word. he asked me over for dinner as we still remained friends. he asked me to help his wife in obedience !! so .. now i see a problem .. his wife unsure of the dog ./. the dog ? unsure of the wife . my freind thought his wife should do OB to rank and control the dog !! rude awakening here !!
             the lowdown : back to the pup 25 weeks .. when you play like that ... you challenge the dog !! there can become a batyle of the wills .. in order to get / keep the tug .. the dog must defend it .. did you read that . DEFEND !! the substitute of prey he thought was play .. [ do you see why i dislike the term 'drives' again]. no - that was not play in the dogs head meaning let's have fun .. the dog is always learning .. his  brain was  being hardwired but not for what my friend thought it was . by trying to take thew tug the dog was under pressure / conflict . it was being put on the defensive in mind , thought , spirit . !! remeber what i wrote ..everything is not always as it seems.  he made the dog insecure ,defensive ,  suspicious as he transferred this to other endeavors. DO YOU understand the effects and the immensity of problems that can be made ?? and the wife had hard time walikng him because  the dog became a basket case !! the moral : again caution when you gear up to stimili that elicits any form of defensive behavior !!
            last comment for this thread : Bernhard Flinks has a nice CD out : a freind of mine showed me it asked  me to evaluate : i only got to see about 15 mins. of it .. titled something like ' building attention /focus through drive'.
            i remember when he started he used a ball , a tug , or another object... he said " let the dog choose' what it likes  in order to start the exercise" . i stopped the CD and turned to my friends and stated : ' do you understand ? very often i worked with people in germany , USA , from Belgium / France..  the words they use do not convey the exact meaning of what they are saying . i told them . rewind an listen > he asked the dog to choose:  that implies he is asking the dog to make a choice which requires thought , - he wants to know what the dog is thinking , what object feel right for that dog, from which the dog will derive it's motivation. do you understand ?? the simple act of throwing something on the ground for the dog to pick out  or holding two objects in your hand ' is asking / taking to the dog" . that is what the first moment was about . reading / asking what the dog is thinking , feeling , toward an object and what it is motivated for .. ya .. people talk about drives .. but what in reality is important . as discussed in former posts ??  many tr

Alboe -- you referenced martial arts .. i like that ! i say to my friends :  dog training is ZEN !!  so on the topic of prey/ defense . consider ...1, a man throws a punch at me  - i step back block the punch ...2. now the man throws a punch and i merely beat him to the punch and punch him first.  ,  3, same, he punches  and i block and punch him simulatenously .. that is , the block and the punch are one movment , fluid .  in each scenario, am i the predator or the prey ?.. am i in defense or prey [ offense]? what is my 3rd alternative is it offense or defense , or another form .,.  an act that has components of offense and defense togther , simultaneously ? and if so how can one be offensive / defensive at the same instant- remember it was one fluid movement.  ? /.what is exacxtly my  thought before each of my actions ? just something to contemplate as you work the dogs.. again .. with canines not everything is at it seems to be

It's not such a simple thing. And when we LITERALLY see the same thing we can have different perceptions/readings. I try to understand everyone and put everyone's lingo into account. At times it is hard depending on how we are wired, taught and trained.

I know a lot about animals and maybe at times that helps me out but at times having more than one dog helps me also. I like to sometimes explain with animals. Most people are aware of animals to an extent. We can talk of a lot of things here; confidence, strength, power, training, demeanor, temperament, lineage, handler, helper and so on. 

It's like pieces to a puzzle........ what's already in the dog, fine tuning it, training, experiences.

And APUP, you are the predator ....in prey

It's not such a simple thing. And when we LITERALLY see the same thing we can have different perceptions/readings. I try to understand everyone and put everyone's lingo into account. At times it is hard depending on how we are wired, taught and trained.

I know a lot about animals and maybe at times that helps me out but at times having more than one dog helps me also. I like to sometimes explain with animals. Most people are aware of animals to an extent. We can talk of a lot of things here; confidence, strength, power, training, demeanor, temperament, lineage, handler, helper and so on. 

It's like pieces to a puzzle........ what's already in the dog, fine tuning it, training, experiences.

And APUP, you are the predator ....in prey