Confidence building and protection - Page 1

Rather than derail the home protection thread, I wanted to make a new discussion.

In that thread, a reference was made to bitework and building confidence, which was met with heavy discouragement.

I'd love to discuss that. I do believe that in certain cases, it absolutely works, in other, you can create a dangerous, unstable animal. Lets look first at two basic styles of protection training.

Prey based will not do much for a dog with lower prey drives. Most dogs lacking in confidence will have their prey drive directly affected by it, for example, if a dog is worried about leaving the owner's side, or engaging a stranger (helper), a dog who may love to chase a ball in the security of their own yard may show very little desire to do so in a new, more stressful environment. I am curious to hear from any trainers out there who have raised confidence in more nervous dogs via prey work and how they did it. I think it can be done, I've just never seen it.

Defensive based is a more stressful style of training completely unsuitable for puppies and dogs with nerve issues and must still be correctly balanced with prey. This is a more LE/PPD type training versus dog sport. It will create a more serious dog who views the man as a threat, in the later stages things such as hidden sleeves and the much reviled false hands can be introduced. A defensively trained dog required a highly responsible handler in complete control of their dog at all times. This is tricky, you can make a dog realize their own strength through defensive work, which can be a great thing or a bad thing, depending on the dog and the owner.


Now we can look at different types of confidence issues. Feel free to add more.

Weak nerves- In my opinion, defensive work is completely inappropriate for this type of dog. I think if a nervy dog has very good prey drive, making a game with a long tug may be fun for the dog, but I'm not sure if progressing to a sleeve is a good idea in such a case. Opinions?

Underexposed/undersocialized- a young dog with genetically good nerve/drive that simply hasn't seen much of the world. I think with good control/obedience and a sound minded handler, these dogs can flourish with either style of training.

Clingyness to the handler- a more pinpointed sort of issue, but I've seen dogs who are fine when they are with their handler but have 0 confidence of their own and are a wreck away from their handler. While protection work alone will not fix this, in a sound dog it can be a useful tool. There are many exercises that teach a dog to work away from the handler and strengthen the dogs' ability to do this.



In the interest of not writing a novel of a post, I'll share some examples of these types that I've experienced as we get the ball rolling.

Can you post a link to the mentioned "home protection thread "?

I hope Hank (aka desert dog) chimes in on this thread.


I think you need to build it up in prey to give the dog more balance so that it isn't stressed out in protection work.  I think you start out by building the confidence in prey.  Go from building in prey (flirt pole, etc.) and then transitioning to getting a bite.  Heck they can build confidence just vy scaring the decoy off.  It does take time and isn't anything that can be done overnight.  I think this is the way to handle with defensive dogs.  If they are high in defense then they need more prey to balance them out.

Ace I read this thread several times and passed on it, as there is alot in one post to respond to. One thing that makes this a hard subject is that every dog is a individual that will have to be worked at the level he is capable of recieving in a positive way. You have to use what the dog will give you and build on what he has to offer. 
  As far as drives , protection or as far as I'm concerned any type work, should be reasonably balanced. And especially for pp, or property protection, should be a dog of clear head. One that ignites quick and defuses just as quick. And drives have to be defined by motivation. While Drives are inherant for one specific reason, "survival". Prey drive to stalk, chase, catch, and kill for food. Defense to "survive" from a threat. 
  The "WILL" to live and survive is what motivates both. The stronger the desire to live, the stronger the drives will be expressed. A dog should be operating in both from a position of confidence not fear, although triggered in defense by fear or percieved threat. A dogs degree of defense is only determined by his degree of will to live. 
  I always start bite training from the time they are weaned, Along with obedience training. I hear all the time how OB can hinder a dogs bite training later on. I don't buy it , I believe they have to go together. Have you ever noticed a pack of wolves that the mother would not correct the pups, or a bitch with her pups that don't correct them? If you can't control them when they are 3 months old how will you control one when he is 3 years old. I do not use a bite sleeve until they are ready to be pressured into defense, and I don't do it myself. I use a old charhart coat and alot of clothes for bite training until they start biting so hard I can't handle it, then stop. I never have dogs that aren't civil. All they need is a command or a reason. 
  Weak nerved dogs usually always work in defense. But after a short time will give up the fight. A confident dog will fight harder the longer the fight goes. What we call hardness in a dog. If a weak nerved dog goes into defense real quick or starts in defense, you can only build on what he gives you to work with. I would not use a sleeve or any thing that threatens the dog. A flirt pole started slow and always letting him win. A tug , "without " much agitation, again always letting him win. Use your imagination and work off his defense to strenghen his prey. 
  In my opinion dogs with weak nerves are a fault. And while they can be helped, you should always remember, when the tube gets squeezed, whats inside will come out. All this is just my opinion
Hank                                                                            

OP

I disagree with your first point confidence will be to verying degrees.  Being ran off at a trial to me is lack of confidence.  It is so sad how these people are always surprised.  Or how about when the decoy is told to freze because the dog loks like he will come off.  All fromlack of confidence.  I am sure most of these dogs have no problem chasing a ball orbiting a decoy with handler in close proximity.  Try it on a long bite though.

to add .. one needs to address several factors.. 1./ the genetic make-up of the dog .. and the innate behavioral attribuites that go with it. i won't go intop a seminar here .. but it is a whole years worth of info  to post on a thread .. this is the undercurrent of motivation and how behavior is expressed. Hank notes the ' meaning of prey' .. and as it relates to genetic make-up .. i second his post ! 2. the other factor , given a canine/pup , the plus and the minus of what it is ,,, do not underestimate the environmental influence on genetics .. that is multifactoral also !! the resultant product /canine is a function of the duality of genetics and experience. !! the physical environment , the RELATIONSIPS and the dynamics of those relationships , the owner himself/herself , - that is to say everything poutside fo the 'self' of the dog affects and effects it .. everything ,, call it socailization or any cliche term .. everything poutside one's self affects one in life . e.g in regards to the owner .. how you talk to the dog , how you approach your dog , how you handle , how and what you teach or fail to teach / on and on .. that is just the owner.. e.g how you teach OB , protection .. all the expoeriences , the interactions .. hank is correct - every dog/person is unique .. every dog /person has stregnths and weaknesses .. = attributes and - attributes .. the wisdom is understanding the make-up and interacting/problem solving within all the parameters .. there are some situations that need to be fully understood as well as the dog e.g a pup that misses the early interaction with people , or early interaction with enviromnmental stimuli will never be 100% - i might get a dog 98% but it will never be 100%.
     if you categorize a dog prey /defense you will misread many dogs at times ..  one needs to take all factors into consideration and come to know what each dog is !! that means understanding the thoughts , genetics, feelings , motivation . e.g ..one may think that a dog is ' low prey' , but that may not be the case , dogs have different unique styles , respond differently  to stimuli , dogs get boreds and distracted in their own minds .,.So we must know the dog
                i do not like , with dogs being worked , family dogs are a different take.. the notion of letting the dog win.. WHY .. because that not only implies challenging then dog BUT more so if you have that mindset it will physically show and that is how your dog will read you .. not good for a young pup.. SUCCESS that is the lesson in the initial learning /teaching.  UNDERSTAND with accomplishment of skill comes succcess . success builds confidence .. in any aspect .. a dog unsure of people can gain confidence by secure /safe , succesful encountewrs with people / as Hank discussed survival the dog is safe , maybe gets a treat .. success -> confidence ! an unsound dog or a low prey drive can have CHARACTER enhanced by experience of success and work better .. better work refuels confidnece. e.g my pup at 12 weeks old , chases a rag , hits into my body .. she gets the bite , a liyttle tug bor bite/grip then i let her go .. NO idea of she won .. in her moind " going into the body , hiotiing into body " brought success. SO next time she was faster and harder .. there is no thought in her mind of ? am i going to win/ or loose. nor in my mind .. she has a goal , a motivation , she perfroms a task that brings her success  !! THIS is how one builds confidence , even woith a dog that has a temperament flaw .. success

I had to read both posts several times to really understand what was being said and they are both great posts (Hank & Alphapup).
It has made me think about my own dogs and ways to change things for the better.  Also some new things to think about/consider.

bump ....Interesting topic....


    

can i please read the home protection thread

I am an impatient person and also like to work with what the dog brings to the table genetically.  Therefore, I don't have the patience to build confidence in protection work.  If the dog does not naturally bring his own confidence and power (assuming he is being worked appropriately for his age and level), then I personally do not see what would be gained by me doing protection sports with a dog that lacks confidence and power in protection.  I can see the value of helping a dog gain confidence, but as an impatient person I would rather start with a dog that brings these things on his own.  Grip is another aspect where I feel the same.  I don't care do to all this puppy playing with the helper to "develop" a bite/grip.  I want to see how the dog strikes and grips naturally, does he come through the bite (not slow up), does he show fight and power, etc.  If not then...I do not see how I can realistically create something that is not there within the dog.