Confidence building and protection - Page 2

VK.. in life , even with genetics .. behaviors are learned & the innate potential is cultivated.  .. yes dogs and people can have innate /genetic predisposed abilities but they are cultured .. e.g dogs can swim .. but swimming is a learned experience. you can never seperate genetics/ environment . All behaviors are the result of the two in synergy .. /stress levles are a genetic trait .. but  confidence and power .. are learned .. a puppy can have a lot of confidence.. but .. did you ever see how fast a person or a dog can loose confidence .. a product of experience/environment. someone can be born a genius violin player but will never be fulfilled unless that person learns how to fulfill it's potential .. it takes years of practice.. a dog with a natural great hard firm full grip can loose that tendency so fast if experiences impreses upon it so !! IF one does not have patience ,   [teaching children requires patience , even with innate ability , arts ., music , sports etc. same with animals ].. If one does not have Patience , one of the most important teaching attributes .. then .. well you fill in the ____.

Hi,
This is a fantastic thread, thank you.

How would you train a pup, through it's different stages of mental development (matuarity),
and build confidence? What are the issues in training that causes young dogs problems?

Alphapup, I will agree to disagree.  That, and I personally just would not do protection work with a dog that lacked confidence.  I do a lot of things (Schutzhund, other forms of protection, dock diving, rally, agility, herding, lure coursing....you name it, we've tried it) so I would rather find something the dog enjoys right away rather than try to build confidence doing something the dog is not inherently good at. And, there's always the liability aspect.  I am all about finding dogs that are born with the balance of drives and thresholds that I am looking for.  I don't want to have to train that sort of thing and I do not believe one has to.  I have somewhat of an "open" lifestyle - I have a postage stamp sized property in an active neighborhood, lots of other pets and small kids running about.  I have friends and family that drop in on a whim.  I like to travel around and usually take dogs.  My lifestyle dictates that I need dogs with rock solid temperaments and medium to high thresholds.  My dogs live in my house and come with me even if it means being in a one room cottage with a dozen other "strange" people.  I don't have kennels/dog runs so dogs and people have to tolerate and respect each other.  That is my number one priority, before we do any sort of dog sports or protection, and I have found that dogs who match my lifestyle have a certain confidence and level-headedness that makes them better prospects for protection training without having to do all this "development" and confidence building.  I have had the experience of living with and training a very well bred working line dog that for whatever reason lacked confidence, and trust me there was no about of patience in protection work that could have trained this dog to earn a SchH1.

Vkgsd, good points. As my life has always been around raising dogs for some sort of protection work. Very seldom is there a generic trained dog that will work well in very many households. On the discussion of confidence building and protection, this is what I have always found to be true.
 
  Confidence can be improved in any dog, which is a good thing. training and conditioning can help a dog develope manners, obedience, through repitition. And while these qualities are desirable a dog that has had all these things, are in my opinion still not a candidate for a personal protection dog.

  In selection, and this is my opinion what determines the success of a personal protection dog is in the hours that are spent, acually interviewing the client that the dog will be placed with. What conditions will the dog be expected to work in, etc.

  The very first things I look for in young dogs are confidence, (not conditioned confidence) but natural. intelligence ( the ability to make decissions based on instinct) rather than trained response.
Temperment, a dog that is very calm with the potential of being very violent when needed. These qualities are inherant, and any dog when real pressure is applied will always fall back on these inherant traits. 

  As one of the most knowlegeable protection dog trainers once said. " the best protection dog you will ever see is the one that can always be around you and protecting you, but because of his temperment you never see him".

Hank

What a great thread, you guys know your stuff.  I've been searching for an experienced PP Trainer and I found someone in my area, who came and assesed my 11 month old female.  Her prey drive is only moderate, but the trainer said she would be great in defense.  I am not convinced.  He began from distance being suspicious and whiping the ground and when she barked he ran away.  Does this sound like a good start and what would be the next step?

Thanks you'll

VKGSD .. yes i agree with your outlook too . oh yes better to have a dog in temperment that is confident.. a good iinate trait to look for in puppy selection .. i was not having that in mind when i wrote the post .. .. when i was discussing confidence i meant , confidence in the sense of accomplishment that propels the innate potential the dog may have - increasing the chartacter of the dog.. ..  any success promotes a sense of accomplishment  , hopefully this thought is hlepful to some .. that was my aim .. ... also confidence , in the sense that succes breeds more succes ..  again agree it is better to have a dog with innate instincts .. in temperament ,...   But others should know for canine knowledge that confidence in respects is a  chartacter trait too and  therefore even people that have a temperament flawed dog CAN have the opportunity to do protection work to .. not the best dog nor maybe the best work .. but it can be done . thanks for your input VKGSD.

Alpha, I do agree that *any* dog can benefit from confidence boost and all dogs can grow in confidence.  I do believe as the handler/trainer it is part of my job in protection to provide constant feedback to my dog that he is doing good and he is "winning".  I think we are in agreement on that.  What I am not willing to do is work a dog that shows a lack of confidence from the beginning.  And by lack of confidence I mean a weakness in temperament, not a lack of confidence that might stem from bad training or training the wrong thing at the wrong age/maturity that was unfair to the dog.  It must be taken into account how dogs from the particular line mature, when they can handle defense, when their fight develops, etc.  I am fine and good with that but what I wouldn't do is use protection as the way to build self-confidence with a dog that has a softer temperament or weaker nerve.  I agree it can be done, I just feel that there are so many good dogs out there that deserve the work and so many poor and inexperienced helpers (most that mean well, but....), it is often just not fair to the softer dog to use protection work as a way to attempt to build confidence when the dog might always be a liability anyway and could probably benefit from doing other activities instead.

VKGSD ,, yes again i it best to have a dog from the start as you write .. no debate on that poiint you make / .. protection work if meant to be serious .. and the dog is  keying on the man .. .. i again can be in agrrement in what you say ... 
      however ... let's not  dismiss the benefit of people working dogs in protection work just for the fun of it .. with  the intention that the dog does not key on the man but more the object [ e.g sleeve , leg tug , suit ] itself ..[ not so much my response directed to you VK ] ..BUT let the readers realize that there are many people that can have their dogs benefit from this type of confidence building through protection  training ..  .. i don't know how much one has done with canines  .. but i can attest to the growth and develpoment of a dogs who once lacked confidence , whose character  becomes transformed. athe result is a dog that is so much a better dog than not have had the opportunity to gain in confidence !! one would be surprised as to what they can accomplish and achieve !! one must train many a dcanine  to understand this ..  not something ewasily put into words .. no different than getting a youngster with no confidence , placing him into one of those outdoor , boot camp routines -  and after having accomplished challenging tasks that they thought were beyond them - all of a sudden they  become a differnent , confident person with increased self worth and esteem .. yes .. this does happen in canines .. and more than one would think !! personally .. i have the utmost admiration and respect for people that help their dogs in that fashion .. not what i prefer VK , is as you statred . i like sound , confident dogs too .. but for those that didn't acquire a dog like that .. much still can be done .. be hopeful and optimistic if you will .. will your dog  be a great PP dog -police dog , best protecor - no ..no it won't...  but will dog  love you and itself   all the more .. most certainly .... yes !!

Alpha....sure I get what you mean but to me that is not "protection" training.  So when someone asks me if I think it's appropriate to use "protection training" to help build the confidence of a dog that lacks confidence my answer is no.  Anyone can mess around getting dogs worked up for tugs and rags and sleeves but to me that is not protection training.  If the dog won't actually *protect* when he is charged by a huge man making physical contact then he's not protecting.  Not saying those dogs are bad dogs, but it is what it is.  Not all dogs can and should do real protection training.

? maybe we might be bettering ourselves too as we work our dogs ?? if so .. would that alone be sufficient rerason to work our dogs ? then .. just for the record here.. a philosophical point of view  .  ? ?  % of peopleand theri dogs  doing sch should hang it up [ quit]  beacuse  VK because by those criteria  .. is Sch true protection work either ? .. and if that is  determined to bei not  'true protection work :  then the conclusion is : that those Sch titles are absolutely meaningless ? a scam ?? a waste of time , effort and money !! again philosophically of course.. then again.. ??? is it more appropraite and honest  calling  real- life  protection , true portection work ?? . what do YOU all think ??  ..  does a dog need innate natural confidence , tempermant tested in order to be a protector ??