Confidence building and protection - Page 3

What do *I* think?  I think true protection work happens when a dog is responding to a threat by protecting himself and/or his handler (or an object I suppose).  The key phrase there being "threat".  In my world, the helper is not my dog's friend, the sleeve is NOT the "win".  In fact, biting is not the win.  I don't want my dogs just barking out of prey/object and then biting the sleeve and thinking they won.  I want them to understand how their bark and their biting asserts their power and control (and they must have confidence to learn this).  I want them to relish the fight.  The win to the dog is maintaining control of the situation and diffusing the threat (fighting the helper and winning).  Does SchH achieve this?  Depends on the dog and the training.  For me it is only part of the picture so no, I do not use SchH alone to evaluate how my dogs do protection nor do I see it as complete "protection training" for what I am looking for in my own dogs or at least those of my dogs I believe will "protect".

Whether titles are meaningless or a scam...who knows?  I don't really care.  I'm not training dogs to earn titles or stand on podiums.  What other people do with their dogs and how they train is their choice, makes no difference to me.  I know what *I* like in a dog and I know how to get that (like what dog to buy as a puppy).  If I don't start with the right dog than no amount of training in any venue will ultimately give me what I want.  Which again gets back to why I won't to protection work with a dog that lacks self-confidence.

Fully agree vkgsd's.
Hank

Well said VKGSDs. 
All boils down to the dog and the appropriate training.

VKGSD ,, just for thje records .. i think your post .. well enunciated !! again .. another reaon i just chuckle at many protecyion routines .. your post is poinant ! no rebutle  from me :>) ... .. BTW you are correct to include the word 'object' .. homes , territories , automoblies ..are all objects .. and part of protection is the realm of guarding .. although two different behaviors they can be  linked !! and yes .. this is a trait[ confidence]  to be not ovelooked in puppy selection confidence with a degree of independence .. a dog that wants to stand next to your pant leg does not make for a good protection dog --- it looks to you to protect it .. Nice converstation VK .. i think people will walk away from reading this thread  with much to think about ..e.g. what they want in a dog and as you stated what they will decide to do with their dog.. AP 

Thanks, I think really we are in agreement.  I might train a few things differently to arrive at the same end but overall it seems we agree with what protection really means and how SchH fits in.  Do I think that a SchH3 dog can be a "real" "protective" dog?  Yes.  Do I think that because a dog has a SchH3 means it is a "real" "protective" dog? No.  I don't see any reason why a very nice, powerful, balanced dog with correct drives and thresholds (and what is "correct" with vary from person to person) cannot be a nice SchH3 dog and easily do very well in PSA, SDA, ring, etc., but I don't believe that simply because a dog has a SchH3 title means we can assume the dog has those traits and they will carry over.  I've seen a national level SchH3 dog get charged by someone in a suit wielding a stick and the dog turned away from the threat and barked at a pile of bitesleeves.  But I've also seen a SchH3 dog that might only be a "club level" dog that I would be very proud to own and take with me walking down a dark ally.  What the titles, exercises, routines mean is really what each individual makes of it.  I don't care if some people train the routines to death and/or train only in prey and score very well.  Their priorities are different and who am I to say they are right or wrong.  My dog is first and foremost my companion, my buddy, and no trophy or title is going to change whether we have each others' back or not.  That is something that comes first from within the dog himself and second from the relationship, bond, respect, trust between the dog and handler.  I honestly believe that if you start with a good dog and have all of those relational aspects between you and the dog, you could train one behavior any of a dozen different ways and achieve the same result because you have a dog worthy of the work and you have a relationship with the dog that motivates the work.

I enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you VKGSDs, Alphapup and others who had stimulated this discussion. 

Much to learn from recognising the true potential of the dog and the appropriate training approach to bring out the best in the dog.  Like the saying goes...a good helper/ decoy can make a poor dog mediocre, take a mediocre dog and make it good, and take a good dog and make it excellent.  Invariably, poor helper work will have a devastating effect on all dogs!  Subtle but maybe not too obvious.

The question is how can one identify poor helperwork?  A sensitive topic indeed.

I agree, very sensitive, especially for people newer to the breed or the sport(s).  On one hand YOU must be the advocate for your dog, you must have a "program" and be directing that program, but on the other hand everyone has to start somewhere and can't really advocate for a dog they don't really understand yet.  This is part of the reason I prefer SDA.  I am new to these protection/biting sports but naturally I feel more confidence in that venue.  I feel totally in control, both while we are working and with our training and program in general.  For me SchH is more of a challenge finding that balance of speaking out when I want to/don't want to do something and learning who I can trust.  I will say that so far, some of the most impressive helpers for us have not been ones that are trying to fill up their books with national trials.  Heck right now the only guys working my dogs in SchH are not "certified" but at least with the dogs I'm training right now, I know what *I* want and how I want them worked.  And even when you do get to that point where you understand your dog and how to break down the training, then you have to deal with the helpers who insist they can help you and can talk the talk but not walk the walk or go out there and do something completely different than what you just asked them to do.

VKGSDs, what's a SDA?

Poseidon ..  A fantastic question .. where there is a question in one person's mind ,, there lies most likely the same question in another's mind !! So RE- confidence and protection work . i so frequesntly see this from freinds and acquaitnaces .. having problems with their dogs in training becaue of helpers /decoys .. 
          15  + years ago my friend was working with me .. he 'knew' dogs !! [ so he said].. we were doing French Ring - so he knows enough he decided to become a decoy .. So he works his dog for training [ creates problems] i shared that story in another thread. .. So i turned to him [ decoy work in Rings sports is difficult- another topic ] , So i said to him as i was trained to do Sch helper work " doing techniques can be learned ... THAT does not make a great helper / decoy !!" " working dogs does not make a great helper /decoy ] in order to be great you must instantaneously know the dog , in working the dog to instantaneously adapt to the dog as you read him ,  to bring out the teaching that the dog is ready for , needs and can be taught "! Understanding/reading / responding/adapting that is what will make one a helper /. for example in a guard .. the dog shouild be intent on the helper .. ok in the event the dog even gets distracted , eyes off what it is guarding > BAM you must immediately respond .. WHY? because the dog must learn to concentrate and how can one guard what it is not paying attention to !!  the other comment : the dog itself .. is the dog making progress and executing as it should , assuming the dog has what it takes?. another trait .. the ability not just to listen to the dog .. but also the owners !!.. i have found the dog, itself  has all the answers but the owner can guide you as what to look for - they know their dog best !! i think we all have seen very good dogs ruined, just ruined  by "  this is the way we do thinks" .. to me .. that is hog wash .. i have seen dogs just stand there upon agitation .. they just looked at you .. the average helper would think 'Oh- no Prey drive" .. completely wrong because they did not Understand the dog .. they want the dog to work their ways instead of understanding the ways that dog worked ..every dog is different and has IT'S INDIVIDUAL STYLE - this is what makes a great helper  :  understanding the dog !! the relaeence to this thread .. poor helper/decoy work can destroy the potential of a dog !! not working correctly with an owner in how to work their dog can be equally devastating !! an understatement :
                Confidence extrudes from the owner and the dog , protection work is a TEAM effort .. me and my dogs work in  unision !~ e.g .. just the owners posture ,, oh yes , their voice usage , their breathing can and will affect your dog working !! just the posture of your helper , his  manerisms & demeanor  , his /her feelings and projections will affect how your dog works .. last comment : the BIGGEST BIGGEST mistake aside from not understanding everything about the dog .. TO MUCH [training ] TO FAST !! ie going beyond before the dog is ready to advance or has mastered the previous lesson taught .. eg doing an entry before the dog bites full and hard .. or is fully motivated to bite !! PHEW .. ? that help poseidon ??

SDA is another venue of sport - tracking, obedience, protection.  The protection is done on a suit and there are "protection" titles (PA - P3) or "police dog" titles (PD1, PD2, etc).  You don't have to be a police dog to do PD titles, but the exercises are different (gun fired at dog during the long bite which is done w/ a suit, exercises where the dog platz/guards the decoy while the handler pats him down, some agility/obstacle exercises in the obedience). 

What I really like about the PA - P3 titles is that every level always begins and ends with a greeting and re-greeting.  IMO when the protection training is taken seriously and done correctly, I feel the dogs demonstrate more control than SchH.  Not flashy obedience in the C phase but actual control as demonstrated by the two greeting exercises.  The protection work involves far more threat, not the guarding a helper standing passive or pursuing in prey. 

Like SchH you cannot do protection unless you pass the obedience.  Tracking is separate.  The T1 is the same as a SchH1 track.  The T2 seems more like a SchH3 track and the T3 seems more like an FH.