Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 3

Should we expect the same level of protection from a showline that is expected from a workingline?

No, but should we settle just because they are "Show Lines."  After all they are German Shepherds and Obedience and Protection are required for a breed survey.  The dogs you mentioned were ok, but should any one be bragging about this protection work?

Is that difference the result of training, basic temperament, or physical limitations? Could a good working line trainer do a better job with a showline than a trainer who only trains showlines? Are their methods much different?

I would imagine the difference is everything you mentioned.  Obviously training, since most of the dogs at the NASS could not heel off lead to the blind, broke early and then had to be carried to the spot of the long bite by their collar.  Training would certainly have cleaned up the slow outs, and the dirty bites after the out.  It also could have helped with the poor, shallow grips and gathering before the bite.  This is just an overall comment, not directed at any particular dog. 

Could a working line trainer do a better job?  Well dog training is dog training and good training is good training.  I have said it before and I will say it again; this is a National event not a local 4H dog show.  If you are entering your dog in a National event, prepare your dog and train your dog properly.  IMO, there is no excuse for poor training for such simple exercises.  I wonder what percentage of time was spent teaching the dog to stack, and gait around the ring as opposed to performing two very simple bite work exercises.  I have worked, trained and handled SL dogs including the SS for years.  I have HOT, titled and shown my own SL dog.  I understand the difference and the motivations of the SL breeders. 

Are their methods much difference?  I would say that the trainers obviously settle for marginal performances and try to avoid putting to much pressure on the dog.  It is obvious that if many of these dogs were trained to properly do the attack out of the blind the bite work would be worse.  Just the pressure of forcing the dog to heel would shut many of these dogs down.  It is clear how many handlers have to "pump" their dogs up before the long bite.  I would say the training is different it is more of a juggling act to get the most control out of the dog, with out causing the dog to shut down and not engage at all. 

Again, it is a National event, one of the biggest for the GSD in the US.  Showcasing and evaluating the best of the best.  Dogs that are supposed to be perfect representatives of the breed, dogs that are being selected and evaluated to be bred too.  This show is supposed to determine the best dogs and rank them based on structure, movement and yes let's not forget temperament and working ability.  I find it disappointing that breeders or owners can not train their dogs to do two simple prey biting exercises adequately.  

I love the look of SL dogs, in fact I think they are gorgeous.  If I could get a SL dog like the ones from years ago I would in a heartbeat.  However, I put working ability and temperament over coat color so I switched to WL dogs.  I also find WL GSD's to be good looking as well.  I really love a dog with strength, confidence and presence, that when he walks on the field everyone notices.  I just don't see a whole lot of that in the SL's anymore.  If I did I would get a puppy and raise train, title and show it. 


JMO and I am sure most will disagree, that is why it is my opinion.

Jim




 

 

 Yes

 

I for one do not disagree Jim.

I hear the same stuff from my hubby who is a K9 officer/trainer and from our friend Dirk from Belgium who is a K9 officer/trainer there.
Years ago he would say "all show, no go".
Which I found very insulting and bit his head off on a few occasions....all the while thinking his comment is not without merit. 


The bite portion of the NASS is pretty watered down and if they can't do those well........

you mentioned the 11th or 12th dog also....Globalhaus maybe???

I was referring to the Sieger Show in Germany, the number 11 or 12 dog.  I will have to find the video.  But he was impressive.

The bite work was watered down, I agree.  The helpers were safe and correct and did a great job.  However, they did not drive through the dogs on the catches.  I'm sure they were instructed to take it easy on the dogs as it is not a working trial.  

Jim

looking forward to the video :)

I too agree Jim though some of the facts you stated make me unhappy, as I know you through your posts you are objective to a good extent, in this post of yours I see you tried hard to be as sweet as possible but you couldn't hide or overlook this important yet hateful fact:

" I would say that the trainers obviously settle for marginal performances and try to avoid putting to much pressure on the dog.  It is obvious that if many of these dogs were trained to properly do the attack out of the blind the bite work would be worse.  Just the pressure of forcing the dog to heel would shut many of these dogs down.  It is clear how many handlers have to "pump" their dogs up before the long bite."

Most important is we don't be blind so we can find our way out, each has his end goal, those who strive for a beautiful strong versatile GSD that can do needed work should confess that the Show line needs to gain more character, nerves and temperament strength in addition to best possible training, how to strengthen the show line remains an open debate, but again we shouldn't be blind less we will get no where.

Ibrahim

Changed subjective to objective, sorry for the mistake.

I can't disagree with anything you've said, Jim. It all makes sense to me.

Although most of my GSD's have been GSL's, I'm essentially an AKC person (dont hate me for that). I see what judges have done to AKC breeds and I can't help but think that the SV judges are messing  up the GSL's by accepting sub standard work and calling it good. I've only attended one NASS and I was pretty green back then, but I had problems understanding why the dog that came off the sleeve got the same rating as the one that didn't.

I won't even get into the conformation part and how I feel about GSD's with Akita heads, roachy toplines and squatty rears. They are accidents about to happen and not good for the future of a breed that is supposed to be agile and quick. If the trend  for breeding an overdone GSD contiunes,  I don't think the results will be happy ones for the breed.

Anyway, I'm not ready to give up on the showlines. My current dog is 75% ASL, 25% GSL sired by a Sch3 American Champion. Her breeder and I share the common goal to breed good dogs that can do it all. I guess that's called the golden middle? She's good at AKC OB, but I don't know how she's going to be with Sch. I plan to find out. Our helpers are good and they don't condone substandard performances as the norm from SL's. We have a number of WL's at our club, one male is the most striking dog I've ever seen, a black sable. He's a good worker, but way too much dog for me. It's not that I wouldn't want a WL with high drive, I could never do one justice. That ship has sailed for me. I will own a GSD as long as I can take care of one but my dogs must walk on a shoestring and not pull me into the next century. 

I like the long bite on the VA 12 dog, Ballack:


From the 2011 BSZS. Jim

Here is a clip from the 2010 BSZS, how about the V85 dog Nilo?  I like him and if I had a SL female I would breed to him over most of the VA dogs. 




Watch or skip to nearly the end for Nilo. Ibrahim, I agree except with the part about me trying to be "sweet." I am not reffered to as sweet very often. Blitzen, You know that we never agree.  

Should we expect the same level of protection from a showline that is expected from a workingline?

No,



Just curious why you said 'no'  here Jim.  Shouldn't both be tested the same?  Wouldn't that solve a lot of problems in the working ability of the SL's?  Things would be forced to change, for the better me thinks.

Slamdunc, until recently, I haven't posted or read here for over 3 years and I honestly don't remember us ever discussing anything until today. Last year at this time I was a pretty sick person, so my memory may not be as good as it should be, but you don't strike me as a person I'd argue with over much other than the right of showlines to live on planet Earth (kidding!).  

Thanks for the videos.