Strengthen Showline Genetics with Working Lines? - Page 4

I agree 100%. I believe this male was raised in a kennel until about a year old and likely had no exposure to alot of elements including children.

Can you say lawsuit?

I too beleive in the "complete GSD" a dog with correct structure, and stable temperament, driven at work, and a family member at home. YES I do beleive in this... and all of our dogs are from Working & Sv Show Lines. I breed for improvement of individual dogs. But one thing I will never do is breed a ???able Temperament. Temperament must be excellent to begin with, Perfect structure with sour temperament would never even be considered. Yes that dog could improve on structure, But could be detremental to Temperament, and temperament is something we just don't budge on. But I do beleive the "complete GSD" is out there and available, I do beleive that we have some of them. Great drives, appropriate family members, extremely stable temperaments ! Good post and excllent comments :-)

...in 1993 i believe it was ..i bred my highline female to emir v kirschental..an va1 uran v wildsteigerland son and full brother to va1 eiko v kirschental..his mother was va3 xitta vom kirschental hgh schh3 fh ipo3"i believe"...i noticed quite a difference in character....hardness etc....i bred a female from that litter to Rex vom Haus Iris V schh3 fh psh3....the improvement in hardness ..pigment...while keeping correct conformation was tremendous,..check almost all working lines czech ..wgr.ddr and you will find a highline dog in their pedigree to keep correct conformation in the bloodlines..why shouldn't it work the other way..

I recently have had some success with this kind of breeding. Although the dogs are not old enough to be fully tested in schutzhund, all of the working homes as well as show homes are having wonderful success in training and showing. They are 6 months old now and the ones that have had hips done look very good. The pigment is excellent and the drives could not be any better. I think that one has to be very careful on what lines are choosen on both sides. A distant line breeding can help as in my litter's case, I think. 7/5,6 on Sagus Busecker Slosse and 2 other places in the 7 generations that V Greif zum Lahntal comes in. Which makes for 5X in 7/5,6,6,7 that Greif is in the puppy's pedigree. Some may say that that is too far out to count, but giving the amount of times it is in there as well as the dogs that decended down and carried this blood into the closer generations were very good also. In this also I was very careful to choose the right show lines too. Almost all of the dog's in the showline side are the absolute best work producing show dogs in Germany. ie: Karat's Ulk, Vando Moorbeck, Ando Altenberger Land, etc. All VERY good working as well as work producing dogs. All in all if you can get some kind of common ground it seems to be much better than a total out cross. Not that total out crosses cant' work out, but your chances are better with common ground. Debby

I agree on temperament - a lot of people say temperament has a lot to do with the way the pup is raised, but I really don't completely agree on that. Interesting, Debby, on the breeding. Let me know how the 6 month pups work out - wonder what they look like as well...

You can ruin a good dog but you can't make a dog with bad temperment good.

I disagree totally. I have taken dogs that had questionable temperament and built them into fairly stable dogs. Love, socialization and long hours of hard work go a long way. I think it is better to say it is EASIER to ruin a good dog than to make a bad one good. I also think that breeding working lines with show lines is a big mistake! Am I the only one who thinks that "correct confirmation" isn't exactly what the west german show dogs have. They flow along as they gait, but they also are far less athletic and agile than their working counter parts. Have you ever seen a show dog really run at the helper with all it has on a courage test the way working dogs do? I saw it once, too bad he couldn't bite hard enough to hang on. I just dont get this "total" GSD stuff. Heck my wife is one of those people who is looking for it, and yet it already exists in most working line (DDR/Czech/West German Working/etc)dogs as long as the owner does his job. Most aggressive working dogs are that way for a reason, and if you really objectively look at any dog you can find out why they behave the way they do. My reccomendation is stop breeding the two types and change the name of show line GSD's to something else. Don't get mad, I own and love my Arlett/Mittelwest male, but he does not, nor has he ever had, what a true GSD should have in the way of athleticism, health, and work ethic. Hope I didn't offend anyone, I wasn't trying to. I have simply had it up to here with midnight trials for show dogs. I once worked a show female that bit nicely, however had no control, no out, and no blind search. The dog needed at least a year or more of training to even think about a Sch1 and yet 2 weeks later the handler had shipped her back to germany with a Sch 1 title. No way that was legit. It is a slap in the face to all the hard working people who go through years of blood, sweat and tears for a true Sch title.

GSDLVR- I can send you the link to pictures if you want? They are awesome in everyway. FlipFinish- I agree and disagree. Which, everyone has a right to their own opinion and there are no hard feelings. 1) You say "I think it is better to say it is EASIER to ruin a good dog than to make a bad one good." I agree totally!! But in making that statement you are insinuating that there are no good show dogs. WRONG! The trick is to get the RIGHT show lines and test your puppy and ideally the whole litter to get an idea as to what is in their heart. 2)There IS a breed standard. Period. You personally may have another preference but that does not change what the standard is. You seem to have very little exposure to good working show dogs. Which is not uncommon as their number is far less than what it should be. But they are out there if one cares to take the time to search. Yes, I have seen a show dog run at the helper with all of it's might and it is so awesome that it brings tears to my eyes!!!!!!! But going back to the subject of working dogs being more athletic and drivey... To me that is one of the reasons TO breed the lines together!! After all shouldn't breeding be for improving the dog in every way possible? 3) Yes, there are some working lines that have V conformation as well as V work! More people should use them!!!! Why would you object to a show dog using them also? 4) If you want a good working, athletic show dog then research what breeders and bloodlines are producing that. Once you find a good scoreing show dog Go and watch for yourself. Keep track of his progeny to see how they do. Yes, it will take years, but to me it is worth it to improve the breed. 5) I also hate all the cheating going on with trials and titleing. I also hate the the dogs that are rushed through just to barely pass, so that they can get their show title quickly. It really makes Sch. titles look like a joke as we look at Sch 3 dogs being chased off the field!!! I fully agree that it is a disgrace to all of the many years of hard work we put into our dogs to make things as perfect as they can be BEFORE they are trialed!!! Debby

i breed working dogs, so maybe i sound prejudiced when i say that flash and roach backs do nothing for working ability. my working dogs all fit the breed standard and several have recieved koer 1 ratings. many show breeders will say that only a true show dog can place high in shows, which may be true but i feel that max stephanitz created a breed for work, not a flashy roach backed beauty contestant.