Strengthen Showline Genetics with Working Lines? - Page 5

djc, Breeding a workingline to a showline is no mistake if done properly. some of the True working showlines who participated in the SV Bundessigerprufung 1999 BSP 9 universal sieger Enzo vom Haus Mach (Pure showlines) 1987, 1988, 1989,1990 Cliff vom Hühnegrab (Pure showlines with V rated in the work!!!! He produced Argus vom Hause Santiages a 3x BSP participant with the highest achievement of seat 3 in 1993!) and dogs with workingline/showline bloodwho participated in the SV Bundessigerprufung 2000 BSP 6 Mäxx von der Germanenquelle (Mind you that this dog is half working/Showlines!) 2000 BSP 21 Deija vom Talka Marda (Hes got some showlines in him!) prejudice of either bloodlines will not improve the breed. It will only damage it. Both bloodlines have something to contribute to one of the other. Showlines could have the drives that the workingline has and the workingline could have the conformation that the showlines have, lets admit that some workinglines do not look like German shepherds but look like coyotes! I can understand the frustration that you have with dogs getting titled that doesn't deserve it. The best thing that anybody could do to end this is to question the status of a particular judge that's known to give away freebies and to question their position as a schutzhund trial judge.

djc, You make a very valid point, and I understand your position. I guess I have yet to meet excetable working "show" dogs. Again, I have one and I have trained him since a pup for Sch, but he just loses focus so easy on the field, no drive to sustain the work. I am sure there are some out there, but not many and that is the problem I have. So many bred dogs with no drives, they can "prance" and they look awesome, but that is not what the GSD was created for. I appreciate your comments. Maybe one day I will want to spend the time to find a good Show line worker. Brittany, First of all have you ever looked back at the original GSD found on this very site? He also looks like, as you say, a coyote. Enzo vom Haus Mach does not have confirmation show winning looks, his front angulation is not as extreme as you see today. Deija vom Talka Marda has just enough show to make your statement, but he is Troll grandson. Mäxx von der Germanenquelle is the same way, without the Troll lines he would probably not done near as well. To each his own, anyone can see I like working dogs, real, true working dogs. I would not like to see show bred with working, just my opinion. And lastly, their may be one or two show lines that have a good courage test, but I have never seen one that even comes close to the stuff I see by working dogs. I will try to post a video I have of Belschik von Eichen Bruche at the 96 BSP, he dropped the helper like a rock. He never even slowed down, not one bit! Truly a sight to see. Even at 12 years old he was still dumping helpers, never seen a dog not stop at all like that. I wish he was still breeding. GSDFLA, I second your remarks.

The common mistake is to say that the "sport" dog is the best representative of the standard. Flipfinish, I have seen police dogs that I think had an abundance of courage but may not fit your description of running all out towards a sleeve. These type of dogs will take the measure of the man they are about to fight because they know it's serious business and not a game. I wonder if these sport dogs would run as you describe if they knew there was genuine pain waiting for them at the other end. They know it's a game. Also, there have been plenty of documented cases of GSD's (and others also) laying down their lives or being seriously injured while protecting their owners/families without any training at all! To me these dogs exemplify what the standard describes and what von Stephanitz had envisioned. Yes, there is a problem in the breed right now with dogs that don't show the proper courage. But there are also plenty of dogs who participate in schutzhund who would not know what to do in a situation that was not a "sport" scenario or in dealing with somebody without a sleeve. There are also plenty of sport dogs that are so good at the sport and have all of the characteristics so sought after by enthusiasts that HAVE to be kept in a kennel and cannot be house dogs. I remember something in von Stephanitz's writings about the ideal dog being a house dog after a day of work. Sorry for the long post, but when somebody says they wished they would separate the show dogs from the breed and call them something else, it bothers me. That's no better than me saying they should do that to the "sport" dogs. We should all be working to improve both extremes of the breed because that's what they are: extremes, and continue working towards that golden-middle.

OldNewGuyMC, I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I have seen many Schutzhund working dogs that bite the sleeve with gusto and yet would not protect their owner in a "real" situation. I attribute this to 2 things, 1. too much prey drive bred into an animal and 2. improper training. Most helpers do a great job of training in prey mode, but lack the ability to properly read a dog in real aggression. If you take these same dogs and train them as a police k-9 then you get what you are talking about. My show line male is very serious, he lacks the drives for schutzhund but I feel 80% certain he would protect my family. But I can never be 100% with a show line, you just can't (in most cases, there are exceptions to every rule!). I would rather see working lines bred though becasue they are the ones who ignore pain, work on their own and have agility and courage. Where do you think the police get their dogs? Not from VA lines I assure you, the dog I referred to in the last post (Belschik von Eichen Bruche) has produced more police dogs than schutzhund dogs because he had extreme natural aggression and balanced nerves, the schutzhund was simply another outlet for his abilities. So I agree with the fact their are working dogs that don't do "real" work, but mostly because of training errors. And once more, I OWN A SHOW DOG! (he's my best friend, just not the best working GSD) I have owned, bred, and titled BOTH! Have you? If so what lines?

I believe it's best to breed for one or the other. Either way should not breed for extremes or creating "problems" by overbreeding for one trait.

GSDONLINE I have done all the foundation work with your friend on his dog. He is a very quick learner as is the dog.1st dog and SCH3 at 30 months!!! Lets talk as these dogs must be worked young in narrow parameters

Interesting bloodlines in this dog, who was V-rated at last year's BSZS: http://www.vom-gelben-ruehl.de/html/deckruden.html

Debby - Still can't get on your site?

Checked into it and they tell me it should be up within 24 hours. grrr. frustrating! Debby

Just so you know GSDLVR, I am meeting up with 2 other littermates today and will have some updated pictures of them on my site or on their pedigrees here if they are good enough. It will be a Brother and Sister to the ones that are in the article. Castlebrook's Winston and Castlebrook's Windy. The one that the article is about is Castlebrook's Windsong. Debby