Who is responsible? - Page 3

Amazing that fraud is always on peoples mind here and simple natural processes take a back seat. If the pregnancy and the ID of the dog was confirmed properly before shipping then the seller/breeder fulfilled their obligation. But, problems can come up, especially when a buyer is not informed enough about possible pitfalls, and that is not the sellers fault. If the buyer did not insist on proper confirmation by a vet, such as via ultrasound, but take the breeders word for it that she 'looks pregnant', then the buyer has accepted that as such and has to deal with possible consequences. If an ultrasound was done, time is a factor. You should not ultrasound too early for example. The new ultrasound machines can detect pregnancy as early as 21 days but at that time the embryos are not firmly implanted in the uterus yet. So what you seen then may not be there anymore a week later. Shipping time can make a difference. And a whole host of other issues. In our case for example, up to now (knock on wood) we have never had a situation where a female that was confirmed pregnant did not have a live litter. In one single case the ultrasound was inconclusive, the buyer still wanted her, we did not charge the stud fee as part of the purchase price until we had confirmation that there was a litter, which supposedly there was not. The seller can only guarantee prgnancy but never guarantee what comes next. Pups and whole litters are lost, even when a dog is not shipped. that is a part of breeding. Legally, if there was a birth, there is no refund. Birth does not mean live pups. If the breeding never took there is the option of a repeat breeding or half of the stud fee back. That's it. The offer to receive a free pup is very generous and more than this breeder needs to do, providing all was done properly before. Steven, not everyone has the airline perks as you do. I doubt that this female and the stud used have the value to warrant having the female shipped back. The free puppy is a much better choice. And yes, for any replacement dog, the buyer is always responsible for shipping. Grauerschaeferhund, once you have your own litters and people start knocking on your door for all sort of reasons, these procedures become much clearer.

D.H.; I really don't know why you are so defensive! As I said in the post above, I am not here to trash anyone,just looking for opinions and experiance. I am fully aware of my responsibilities as a future breeder if I ever get there. If and when anything happens I will try to do the best to full fill my responsibilities to the future buyer. I have a regular job as most of us and do this as a hobby, not to get rich from it like some of the people out there! I sure as heck do not want to cheat anyone out of their hard earned money.

D.H., I did not know the value of the two dogs involved in the breeding, nor do I know the history of how many pups this female routinly has. It may or may not have been worth it to send the dog back to the seller, I certainly do not know. I was just offering an opinion, to the original poster's question. What ever airline perks I may or may not have is personal, and mutually exclusive from this public topic and had no influence on my opinion.

I agree with you SGHB! D.H. coment was of topic and I was NOT trying to bad mouth anyone.I was just looking for info and perhaps advise thats all. I appreciate her input on topics and advice as every one lese does, but some of these coments were uncalled for. For all D.H. knows, I could be future business for her. It makes me think twice now if I ever will send a dog through her for training in Germany! Thanks to all of you!

EDD in Afgan, I agree totally with you on the method you suggested of figuring out the female's worth, the adding in the stud fee, other costs, ect. The other side of that coin is if the female is 6-7 weeks pregnant, swollen to capacity(I have seen this actually), it is kind of hard to talk someone into one of those sweet deals, especially if the female has a history of many pups and being a good mother. Then you are up against that 10,000.00(Euro) wall again. *********************** grauerschaeferhund, For the record, if I needed a dog titled in Germany, I would not totally discount using a specific facility for that objective, base only on a disagreement with someone on a internet website thread. Just an opinion.

SGBH, I know what you mean on that, that is why I usually try and find a female I want, find out when she will come into season, what studs are available then purchaser her, pay stud fee, then have her shipped when safe which also means you can confirm pregnancy before shipping. But you payed for the dog and stud fees up front. A little different then buying a dog that is already confirmed pregnant, with that you are at the mercy of the seller as to what they think the female and the litter is worth. I also if I was not expierieneced in breeding would not have a strange dog shipped to me pregnant and have to deal with the problems that could arise in welping a new litter. Those of us that have done it know of the sleepless night ( they always seem to have them at night and on a night you are very tired). The watching to make sure all is going well, the occasions of haveing to jump in there and assist, tearing sacks or getting one to breath or the fast trip to the vet. Definetly would not want my first time to be with a dog i don't even really know yet. Mike

Vom Felsenhof, i could not agree with you more. If that would be the case that the female was NOT bred to beginn with, that i would consider fraud and would do whatever it takes to get my FULL money back. Or,as stated in a different thread, i would pay the seller a visit with "my boys " !;-)! Sadly enough, this aperently was not the case with grauerschäferhund. That is bad luck, not more ,not less. Here in Germany when female is mated and will stay empty you are entitled for a rebreeding. If the bitch stays empty again the female owner has bad luck, he's not entiteld to anything. If the stud should be sold before the second breeding takes place, the bitch owner is entiteld to half of the studfee. If it can be prooven that the stud is not capable for breeding, for instance low spermcount, the female owner is entiteld for refund of full (or half,cant remember) studfee. Now i have to admit, i have never seen these "Rules" in writing, but this is the way it is handeld. Again, this is something that should be a case that should be communicated between the partys involved. As far as i know from my surroundings, there is always something worked out. Kind Regards Ulli Dresbach

Stephen, I frequently see you commenting about sending dogs back and forth, but you are in a very unusual situation in which you can take dogs back and forth for very little expense because of your line of work. That does not apply to the average person. Sending a dog back and forth via the regular channels is a considerable expense and may not warrent another overseas breeding unless the owner is looking for something very specific. It comes down to math. A puppy out of the sire that was used for this imported female IMO is more sensible, especially when limited funds are an issue. Opinions were asked, that happens to be mine. *** Grauerschaeferhund, I did not see your question as badmouthing anyone. The first part of my post was in response to all of what had been written up to then. I also did not see that you were asking for people to share just your opinion. Sorry if I look at these things from a different angle and without the sugar coating. Every time something like this happens it hurts, on several levels, not just financially. The only way not to wear yourself out over something like this is to look at it factually, and make every lesson count. You clearly wrote in the origainal post that the pregnancy was confirmed. One of your ads say pregnancy was confirmed via ultrasound. Sounds like the breeder did everything properly. But here people right away jump on the fraud bandwagon without checking if that should even be a considerstion. When you buy a female confirmed pregnant that does not automatically include a confirmed return on your investment. Lots of things can happen to litters before and after they are born. It is always a risk. You had certain terms attached to this sale, which were fulfilled with the ultrasound. After the dog has changed ownership and possession that is then the risk of the new owner. But I did explain some of the pitfalls, which we for example try to avoid so that the situation you are finding yourself in does not happen. But we could never guarantee success 100% either. Just increase the probability of success. I guess we have been very blessed with our success rate in sending pregnant females. When a female is offered bred and then does not come up confirmed pregnant, which also happens on occasion, we for example always give the buyer the option to pull out of the sale since the terms have not been met. That is also a given. Once the ultrasound confirms pregnancy our obligation is fulfilled though, and also the obligation of the stud dog owner. We make sure the females particulars appear on the ultrasound print-out, which is sent with her and also includes the vet info so that there will be no questions about authenticity of the ultrasound later. These are some fact that should go hand in hand with a sale of this kind. After the ultrasound was done and pregnancy confirmed the rest was just nature taking its course, which unfortunately happens from time to time. You asked for opinions, you got mine. I try to look at the limited facts available. It seems everything was done right. But then again, I don't have all the facts. When you send a dog to us for training, you will be subject to the same kind of scrutiny BEFORE you go through all the expense of sending a dog, because I want to increase the chance of success for you as much as possible so that we do not have to tell you 'sorry, but your dog cannot be titled' 6 weeks after the dog has arrived. Most people happen to appreciate this kind of sincerety. And the success, in both the dogs we have titled and live litters from pregnant females shipped, speaks for itself.

GSDfan ... I own a Cattle dog. I suppose I could buy just a female then later breed.. that would be my next thought.. but, I figured if people are selling pregnant bitches .. I would rather do that.

Stephen, I frequently see you commenting about sending dogs back and forth, but you are in a very unusual situation in which you can take dogs back and forth for very little expense because of your line of work. That does not apply to the average person. Sending a dog back and forth via the regular channels is a considerable expense and may not warrent another overseas breeding unless the owner is looking for something very specific. It comes down to math. A puppy out of the sire that was used for this imported female IMO is more sensible, especially when limited funds are an issue. Opinions were asked, that happens to be mine. ******************************* God, I hate to bore others with this. D.H., I have in 26 years "sent" O-N-E dog(before this job that you are so pre-occupied with), unaccompanied from Germany to the states. You have NEVER seen me commenting on "sending" dogs back and forth from anywhere. I "carry"(with me) as "excess baggage" dogs back and forth, but now that was N-O-T my suggestion to Grauerschaeferhund, now W-A-S it? Here again I don't know how this fits into the whole thread. "Sending" a dog back and forth cost me as much as it does anyone else. Based on factors not disclosed in Grauerschaeferhund's original post(value of dogs and number female routinly whelped in litters-maybe 11, who knows) it may or may not have been worth it to "ship" the dog back for a repeat breeding(even for ME, if that is what I wanted to do). My personal situation had NADA, ZIP, ZERO bearing or influence on that tidbit I volunteered to Grauerschaeferhund. I have never given anyone advice that applied only to me, that they could not benefit from, based on any perceived "situation" that you have about me. Build a bridge and get over it. D.H., you provide an invaluable service, that is appreciated by A-L-L, myself certainly included. I for one, benefit from this quasi mentorship with you TEMENDOUSLY, as others here do, I am sure. But, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G- you say(on a personal level) is not Gospel. Darling, let me WHIsper in your ear. You are W-R-O-N-G on this, human like the rest of us. Welcome to the club. Kind regards. Stephen