Fun Poll--What would your dog do? - Page 10

This is a very good senario. When we train the police dogs we use this as alot of dogs will attack who ever is on the ground. We run these scenarios for officers being attacked on traffic stops, to allow the dog to act without being given commands. Funny thing is if you run it on the opposite side of the car from where the window is open alot of the dogs will continue to jump at the glas and not come out the open window on the opposite side. So we train moveing the attack around the vehicle. We also train with the officer on top of the suspect and the suspect ontop of the officer. This is done with a muzzle at first to make sure the dog is only going after the suspect even when the suspect is on top. later we use a suit and standing attacks a hidden sleeve. But like anything you may think you know what the dog will do but you never know until you train for it. Many are suprised when the dog goes for the person on the bottom of the pile instead of the suspect. As for my personal dogs, 2 of my females would get the bad guy cause we have exposed them to this type of training. The rest, there is a good posibility I might get bit also. Mike

Preston- I am happy you and the AKC judges you speak of have had good luck and possess such confidence in your showline dogs. Now to give some examples of how to test the theory and train for it.... The first thing we need is dogs that will bite in a suit and/or do muzzle work. If your dogs do not do this, or have not been trained for this, I would not attempt these scenarios. Attempting to do these scenarios with only a sleeve is unsafe and will do nothing to actually test your dogs in this type of situation. As always, do any training under the supervison of your Training Director and provide for the saftey of dog, handler, and decoy. So to start to test the theory: 2 decoys in bite suits. Dog and handler 7 yards away. decoys began to "fight" Handler announces they will send the dog Handler sends the dog and the "good guy" goes to the ground. Dog will probably go to the decoy on the ground. Now same scenario and the "bad guy" (other decoy) goes to the ground. Should produce the same result. Dog goes to decoy on the ground. Same scenario with the dog in a down and the handler in a bite suit. Handler calls dog for help and then goes to the ground. Dog should attempt to bite the handler. It is important that their is not alot of theatrics in these scenarios. In fact the decoys and handlers should be silent except for the command. Now is when people always say, "What if" or "I would never send my dog" Yada, Yada, Yada...... It doesn't matter we are trying to test a theory and demonstrate a behavior.

Training in set up scenarios like the one abouve have an infinite amount of variables. Without being there to set it up and direct the participants, I can't guarantee you will get the anticipated results. Additionally, there are bite suits, which is equipment. Now if your dog has had muzzle training you can attempt to do the scenario exactly how it is described in the original post, preferably at night. If not, I have come up with another scenario to test this theory: We need a wall, blind, or the outside corner of a building would be best. We also need a "bad guy" and another person to hold the dog. The handler stands at the corner of the building. The helper holds the muzzled dog on a leash, standing about 10 feet away from the handler. You guys are having a friendly conversation. Bad guys steps from around the corner, grabs the handler, and pulls them back around the corner of the building. Handler and bad guy go about 12 to 15 feet around the corner. Handler lays down on the ground. Position yourself so you will be perpendicular with the dog as they come around the corner. The "bad guy" shoudl be squatting or kneeling over the handler but behind the handler in relation to the approaching dog. When handler and decoy are in position, let the dog go. The dog will probably hit the handler. This scenario we want alot of theatrics. Yelling screaming. We want a real pumped up dog dying to defend their beloved owner. "What if", "I would do this", "I wouldn't send my dog"... It doesn't matter. We are trying to demonstrate a behaviour and the possible negative outcome that could result from this behavior. These tests and probable results are with strong, well trained, dogs. (This of course is objective)These dogs do not hesitate and immediatly engage in a fight. Some of you may be surprised to see your dog hesitate, bite half-assed, or fail to engage at all. The dogs that do this are more likely to bite the bad guy because their hesitation and/or lack of commitment enables them to identify their handler. Is this good or bad? I guess it depends on how you look at it.

How do you train to avoid this? It is important to remember the peramiters of the original scenario. The main points being, it is dark, their are two people fighting on the ground which makes it difficult for the dog to identify their handler, and we have a well trained dog that will immediatly engage in this fight. Training for this is really about making the handler aware of the behaviour and the likelyhood it will happen. In a real fight, there is alot going on. By making them aware, the handler can prepare themselves to immediatly out the dog if the dog bites it's handler or attempt to direct the dog to the bad guy in the first place. Once the dog know's who is who they usually get it right. Training for this involves teaching the handler how to read the incomming dog. The dog is looking where they are going to bite. In the abouve "test scenario" with the bite suits, we teach the handler to look where the dog is going to bite and to direct them to the correct target. It is pretty much a close quarter call off and re-direct.

This is kinda funny but not really if it actually happened. My WGSD would give him the keys to the truck and go riding with him!! My DDR girl would go after him before he even laid a hand on me. She's been tested with all that before. My GSD wanna be (Pit Bull Mix) would No doubt take the guy down and tear him up, he's already protected me before, and he's my pound dog and a very good one I might add. My other GSD I would think he would bite the guy but like someone has stated, I would like to have someone test him to see what would happen.

Ok guys, you have given me alot to digest. I am in a VERY GOOD SITUATON NOW WITH MY MALE. I have a female, would not want to depend on her. My Male is not in the greatest of Health. I am in a position, that I NEED a CLEAR HEADED, VERY SOCIAL/CIVIL that WILL protect. I know that just going out and purchasing a sch male is not the end all/be all. This excerise is not funny to me and I take it very, very serious. I am thinking at this point I just got lucky with the male I have, when he goes I do not want/cannot depend on luck. I have time to learn and research. So help me out here, Plz. I do not want Physco dog, been there done that.

Get a real dog, here is another true story for you on normal GSD temperament. Back in the mid 1970's an acquaintance of mine B bought an 8 week old German Shepherd Male Puppy from a well known local and famous kennel which bred, trained and sold GSDs for seeing eye. B wanted a family pet and protector for his wife and young children. This male was very masculine, nice looking but a bit short on angles even though the kennel had some top AKC show winners. The kennel's dogs were import blood from W. Germany and not from working lines. This individual, B heard about a local Schutzhund club and went to watch it train on a Saturday morning because he was curious about Schutzhund. The club had some young dogs "staked out" and a trainer was going down the line agitating them one at a time. B asked him what the heck he was doing and the trainer replied, "No german shepherd will bite and stop an intruder unless he is trained to bite. We do that here." B replied "my dog needs no training, he will protect my family and I have no doubt he will bite any intruder". The trainer told him, "No way, it just can't happen that way. Bring your dog over to my house this afternoon and I'll prove it to you." So B took his 3 year old male GSD over to the trainer's house. He left him in the car and knocked on the door. The trainer came out and said "okay, take your dog to the end of my driveway and as soon as I open the garage door let loose of the lead. I'm going to make your dog into a peeing mess". So B gets his dog positioned, the garage door opens and the trainer dressed in full padded suit, pants, two sleeves, and a wire face mask comes running out at his dog waving a stick and screaming at the top of his lungs. B. lets the lead go and his dog runs at the trainers as fast as he can (accelerated to about 20 mph) jumps and hits the trainer's chest and bites his face mask. The trainer went straight back and down flat on his back, his mask flew off, the dog grabbed his upper thigh and shook him like a leaf. He screamed, get your dog off me, get your dog off me!". B ran over grabbed the leads and told his dog "no" and the dog released. The trainer got up went in the garage and took the suit off. He then came out and was visibly shaken. The dog wagged his tail and was friendly just as if it didn't happen. Myself and another breeder, now an AKC judge, tested this dog a number of times in a warehouse situation and he performed the same. He was the toughest GSD I have ever known of and yet was totally sound. The dog was good around B's kids and neighbor kids and friends and clearly had "normal GSD temperament." Almost all the GSDs bred by the kennel he was from had the same normal temperament (a fair proportion turned out to have bad hips as they got older, but that was before most breeders xrayed joints). These GSDs were smart, easily trainable, reliable and made great seeing eye dogs and police dogs. They were potent home defenders. This is what every GSD should be mentally. You can acquire GSDs like this from many of the top show and working kennels in W. Germany to this day. You just have to know how to get them. I am tired of hearing about how so many W. German zuchschau kennels supposedly breed weak temperamented GSDs. I know for a fact that a significant number of them are very concerned about good temperament and produce it. Courage tests don't always give a pure diagnosis of the GSDs overall temperament and ability to be a potent home protector. Often they tell more about the GSD's training, trainers and kennel life. I like to GSDs tested in repeated real time, real life situations before I draw any conclusions. Ask any knowledgeable breeder of importer of W. German GSDs if they think the average progeny of zuchschau dog V Eros Luisenstrasse would fail to defend his family in a home invasion situation. The answer is always a resounding yes, of course.

Another true story about normal GSD temperament. Back in the mid 1960's a friend of mine was the first breeder in my area and one of the first in the country to use Lance of Fran-Jo on one of his bitches. Lance was relatively unknbown at the time. The bitch in my view was mediocre but the puppies all looked very nice and had nice movement. They all had excellent temperament. Some from the litter were finished as champions and deserved it because they were close to the standard (for real). One nice male was sold to the owner of a tire store who had been robbed at night a number of times. The dog lived in the store 24 hours a day and freely walked around during business hours greeting customers and their kids, but this dog never went outside from the store. He was exceptionally friendly and outgoing. He was a good ambassador for business. But at night when the store was locked he patrolled with a vengeance. During his long and healthy life, there were never any more breakins. I know for a fact that this dog would never back away from anyone attempting to break in or attack his master. Most Lance progeny were like this. Lance himself could have easily obtained a Sch 3 in my opinion and the Germans would have loved him (he was their kind of dog). It was the uncontrolled in-breeding of Lance and his progeny by American breeders looking for extreme sidegait only that has made this normal temperament a rarity in American lines now and produced such long spindley, poorly constructed GSDs. When one has seen up front and first hand what normal GSD temperament is and owned dogs with it, it is easy to understand when it uis lacking.

from my study of each of my dogs temperments: Aleit would bark and run circles but I think would move in.... she would be heistant but wish me protected lets just hope she is not too late lol Madison my 8 month old has super strong protection type a personality and would be out for blood in an instant.

Cute stories Preston. We have all heard these kinds of stories. They are filled with human interpratation and emotion and still don't make these kinds of dogs the norm. We would all like to think our dogs would do the same but never have the oportunity or reason to test it. Also I would have to say, dogs from the 60's and 70's were before the breed took the main dive in it's downward spiral.