Fun Poll--What would your dog do? - Page 5

Say we have a strong, well trained dog that does not hesitate and will immediately engage in the fight. That dog will more than likely bite the handler. More than likely bite it's handler. I know this is a tuff pill to swallow and goes against everyone's ideal of their dog protecting them. Many people get very offended if someone offers the notion that their own dog will bite them. Most people just simply refuse to believe it could happen. When this is done with k9 handlers it is a complete surprise scenario because no one believes it until it happens and even then many try to rationalize or make up some exuse. I have seen some handlers get so pissed and blame the dog and say they are getting a new one. Now I will explain the common theory as to why this happens and tie it into the things we have been discussing lately.

To start to attempt to explain this behavior we have to accept that dogs do not think like humans. They are conditioned response and instinctual animals. Everything we do in bitework training are based on a dog's instinctual drives to survive. Prey drive= I have to chase the bunny to eat. Prey aggression= I have to kill the bunny. Defense drive= I have to drive away the beast that wants to eat me or my babies. Social dominance= I have to be the Alpha dog so I always eat and reproduce. We call this scenario the "weakest link" Have you ever seen a dog fight that involved more than 2 dogs? Even mulitiple dogs playing rough. What happens? The dogs gang up on the dog on the bottom or the "weakest link" Now we do this scenario at night because it makes it more difficult for the dog to identify it's handler but I have seen the same results (with me and my own dog) in broad daylight. Why this happens is the dog engages in the fight because that is the conditioned response to his training. They go after the person on the bottom because it is their instinctual compultion to eliminate the "weak-link" If a pack is having trouble sustaining enough food they drive out the weakest pack member. If a pack memeber gets sick or injured- they are killed or driven out. If a puppy is sick or unhealthy the mother pushes it out. Breeders know this. So this the double edged sword of muzzle work. It raises the dogs level of social dominace and their instinct to kill the "weak-link". It is important to remember the dog is not thinking "my master is weak so I will kill him" We talked about table work and some of the different tasks and techniques involved with it. One of the things I use the table for is to getup close and personal. Table work is where you can see if a dog is doing to bite for real, developing various drives, and teaching a dog to bite and win in each of these drives. I'm typed out for the night. I know many of you might condem this notion. Some will go to their training directors who will tell you I am full of shit. I might be. I don't think so but maybe. I have participated in and scene this same response over and over again. This is the common theory of why this behavior occures.

PS I have to work the next couple of days but I will explain how to safely attempt this scenario or something similar for those who have training directors willing to try.

GARD, this is good discussion. I've seen this behaviour before in some of my dogs. They key word is *some*. Do you believe this will vary from individual to individual? As an example, I tend to roughouse with my dogs a lot, and the female dog will go after anyone showing the slightest signs of weakness. However, if I play fight with the female and I end up letting her make a lot of noise on top of me, the male dog just mouths her. Said female dog is very opportunistic, despite not having the strength to back it up; male dog allows everyone to walk all over him, including a Dachshund and a spitz, though he is not what I would call 'submissive', despite having civil drive up the wazoo. Possible that the dog's rank (for lack of better word) "drive" contributes greatly to this?

Get a Real, are you in law enforcement? Is it in Marysville? The reason I ask is the number of times you have personally witnessed a described scenario. "I chose this scenario because it is very similar to one we train in law enforcement. It is a basic traffic stop scenario where the officer directs the "bad guy" to exit the car and the officer is attacked and ends up on their back with the "bad guy" on top of them. I have participated and/or observed this scenario over 100 times with the same results 85-90% of the time." In the words of Fritz Biehler, 'If you need a dog for personal protection, go buy a gun.'

I am always amused at the number of people who tell me their dog, be it a GSD or whatever, would defend them or their family. Thinking this is frankly, BS. Most dogs will NOT defend an owner or family. The value for most people in having a dog for "protection" is NOT that the dog will bite someone in defense *(and which most will not do so), but in the deterrent factor. I have seen hundreds of GSDs and other large breed dogs (Rotties, Pits etc.) and most would not have defended anything except perhaps their own dinner or babies. In my own kennel I have some excellent dogs, but only about 3-5 who have the temperament to defend me. Many of them are trained or training in Schutzhund, but Schutzhund protection is a misnomer and is about control and discipline of the dog as much as anything. It is far from reality. The fact of the matter is that most dogs when given the scenario that started all this silly discussion would bark and/or run away. The second fact is that if someone really wants to hurt someone with a dog, they will likely simply kill the dog. And I agree with Get A Real Dog and perhaps others (*did not read all the posts) that if one really wants to be certain of defending themselves, get a gun. Better yet, use your brains and do NOT put yourself in situations where you could be threatened or in a difficult situation. Too many people are delusional about needing to defend themselves. Get A Real Dog is also absolutely correct that dogs will and do attack the weakest link, in this case meaning the dog/person who is under neath it all. Case in point. I have 17 dogs who run together in one group and 9 in another group. I separate them this way because of convenience. They can and do get along well enough that I can put them together, but I generally do not, just for sake of management and control (there are many rabbits here and if one chases, they all want to do so). In any case, they all play together and do just fine. If I see a dog trying to dominate, taking a toy from others etc., and it is beginning to get too rough, then I intervene to prevent escalation. Most of the time I let them work it out and I know when to intervene. They are never left unsupervised by me being right with them. Sometimes an individual dog will do something that requires me to correct it. In such a case I must always be VERY careful about how I make that correction because the second I get the dog in a compromising position, often many of the other dogs will come over and want to go after the dog I am correcting. When they do, they too get corrected, but it is always clear to me that if I let this get out of hand, the dog being corrected would be jumped by at least a few of the pack. Again, most people do not have the opportunity to see what dogs will and will not do. Most people, even people who do Schutzhund with their dogs, think the dog will protect them. I get frequent calls from people who want a "protection" dog, yet have no clue as to what they are talking about, or what training is required, let alone have any clue as to whether they would have the skills and knowledge to own such a dog. Frankly, most people have no business owning a dog who is really "protection" trained. Too many simply want such a title for all the wrong reasons. Bottom line: Use your head and do not place yourself in positions where you require protection.

Great topic and some very good info. I am one of the lucky ones, my male would get the bite right even if I am on the bottom. I am going to be very sad when this one goes, this post is making me realize just how lucky I am. I had a female gsd and I have never been able to replace her IN mind and temperment, I keep looking. My female now just might take me out on the "weak link", If she stuck around. GET A REAL DOG, can you train for this situation/ train the dog to chose to protect the owner, top or bottom? Or are the dogs just so charged they revert the law of dogs?

Hodie, I agree. There are dogs out there tha amy defend, but they are few and far between. Most people that are willing to confront a dog are going to kill it with a weapon.

K everybody, go out and get your concealed weapons permit, so we can all shoot at eachother in a fair manner. (sarcasim) for the dim ones who don't realize. Hodie it was ment to be ammusing and to open some eyes. I don't agree it is a silly scenario or post. People are learning and thats great thing. Your right not everybody needs or can handle a PP dog. Just a reminder to some, not to look to your dog to save your butt. Be aware and watch for danger yourself.

I thought Hodie was agreeing with Get Real.