Are Titles Necessary Before Breeding? - Page 12

Echo, Maybe you should use a dictionary and look up the difference between prosecute and persecute. In any case, no one is interested in doing either to you. You do all you need to do by yourself. And no, I have no idea who spook or most of the posters are. But I do know who is and is not disingenuous.

OK, So by what is posted here you can tell who is and is not an honest individual, who is and is not breeding responsibly, who is and is not an animal expert, who is and is not training appropriately, I can keep going.... But personally I think you making that statement again says presumptuous.

If we care about the breed, we have a responsibilty to it, the titles are suppose to insure the future the of the GSD. Where I get my panties in a twist is when I see "midnight titles", dogs that receive VA ratings that are not producing quality progeny. The structure of the dog changed because it is the new "in" thing to do. Nature had it right for a reason, who do we think we are?????????????

Gustav, While it is true that an animal has the same genetics before as after attaining working titles, many are not capable of assessing a dogs temperament and drives without training and trialing to SchH1 or higher. The destruction of the American Shepherd occurred over many generations, and involved the indiscriminate breeding of animals that were incorrect (not breedworthy) in drives, temperament, and structure. It is quite correct that one byb is unlikely to cause a catasrophic degradation of the breed, but casual breeding remains pointless and has increased potential to produce pups that do not have a place in our society. Further, every temperamentally defficient GSD DOES have a negative impact on the reputation of the breed, as well as the breeder. If this is not enough, consider the market to which you will be catering. Pups of untitled parents are unlikely to be purchased by buyers of high or even moderate breed knowledge. Your buyers will inevitably be those who are less knowledgeable and thus put YOU (the breeder) at greater risk for trouble. These same buyers are likely to produce a few litters in their OWN back yard before too long and with even LESS research and care than (you). I therefore must reiterate what I stated previously: The breed club(s) work for us. We pay dues and fees so that those more knowledgeable and impartial than ourselves will judge the capabilities and correctness of our breeding stock. Without this objective evaluation we could each just claim universal perfection for our own dogs as awarded by ourselves in our own little world and recognized only by us. I believe that titleing is important, and that cheating should have strong enforcement and BRUTAL penalties so that it becomes unattractive to those who might try. Best Wishes to all, Jonah

Jonah, I understand your point and you understand my point. But until the end result is different for the GS,(the highest titled ,KK1,dogs in Germany) are the ones I see the least of in real working venues today, then sell it to others. It would be different if 75% of the GS in Germany who are sought by real working people were working lines and still were sought by working people. But it is the opposite. So the safeguards you speak of (eliminate midnight trials, or enforcement) are either not working, insignificant or the problem is larger than you admit. Either way, the breed has suffered in image and reputation among REAL dog people more than BYB will ever do. So the credibility of people producing these dogs TELLING someone else how to breed is only valid with the unknowing or person who owns this type of dog. I'm not hating, I am just saying that when the product reflects the advice,it means more. Again, remember this topic is about Breeding, and I still am waiting for someone to explain the large percent of these high titled dogs that won't do real work. It does not follow the logic of the means equalling(much less justifying)the ends. JMO

Gustav, Sadly you are right about dogs undeserving of their titles. The problems are nothing new as they were the obvious reason for Sieger Show bitework tests. Worse yet dogs are routinely rated "Ausgepraegt" when they have clearly been only sufficient. There have been a few shakeups when SV presidents such as Messler cracked down on poor performers, but TSB failures continue to be high, and I suspect that the SV brass have a strategy to put TSB back on track. The trouble is that if they bumped every dog from the Auslese group that deserved to be, widespread rebellion would ensue and SV would suffer a huge loss of membership. I believe that the current strategy follows SV precedent of gradual change without rocking the boat. Best Wishes, Jonah

Gustav, very well stated. I wonder about that myself. I would like to see KKL rating on more working dogs but I will not buy another KKL1 dog, over a non breed rated "working" dog EVER again. See the dog, see the dog work, paperwork means little. I have lived it, seen it, and will continue to live by it, until many things change. If they ever do. I'd be willing to say it's higher than 75% of showline KKL1 Sch3 dogs, that aren't working dogs at all. It's almost laughable, if is wasn't so damn sad!

4 pack I think you will get some opposition to that last statement. I am just curious, so don't shoot me. How many responding to this thread have been "in" this breed for 15 years or longer? No fibbing; watching Rin Tin Tin in a an old movie or owing a GSD when you were a 5 year old or sending it off to Germany or to a trainer here dos not count. How many have actually participated in titling their own GSD's?

I have owned GSD's for 15 years. Just at the point in my life where I have the time and $ to do more than play. It has always been just me, myself interested in dogs. No family or spousal support for more than a pet. Now I can justify the time away and $'s spent on my dogs. Family had to come first, before trials and such. Feel free to oppose to my opinions.

Then you haven't actually titled any dogs yet or helped with titling any? I'm asking this to try to understand who is speaking from actual experience titling dogs.