Are Titles Necessary Before Breeding? - Page 13

After thinking about my orginal question asking how many have been in the breed for 15 years or more, I'd like to rephrase it. I realized I know a number of people who learned more about their chosen breed in 10 years or less than have others with 20 years of more breed experience. So, how many have actually titled a dog or helped title one? Thanks.............

I can't oppose what you said 4pack, I don't have the cold hard facts. What I would ask is why do you think that "higher than 75% of Sch III, KKL1 showlines" are not working dogs at all?

Blitzen I hope I understand the ?'s right I'll try to answer your question. Known the breed for about... 25 years owned them for about... 20 years rescued/adopted/taken on... 5 bought 7 to date in the last 3 years breeding for just over 1.5 yrs. training for right at 2 yrs. now Titled to BH (not really a "title" I know, so far) bought at 9 wks old and started at 15 wks going to training. have 4 7mo. olds in training have 3 yearlings in training (1 is SAR, 2 in 4-H as well as schH.) have 1 3 yr. old in training, (we bought him he was a mess) No actual Titles yet, but this spring will go for SchH1 on the BH dog. have pups I've sold that will be going up for BH this spring as well as my daughters dog. Total of 5 going for BH this spring. I am pretty happy with that start.

One thing I don't see mentioned here is anyone mentioning KNOWLEDGE! A title (properly attained through having good genetics, receiving actual training and actually earning the title, show rating and Koering)will give you some knowledge of where to start if you intend to breed. Working a dog and seeing how it reacts under different stresses will give you an idea of what you have standing in front of you! (May be the product of careful breeding or may be a genetic fluke!) Then you must have information about the genetics behind the dog and knowledge of the dogs in the pedigrees! I believe this is where many of the people getting into breeding are doing the most damage, especially when they are kennel blind as to the dogs they own and haven't bothered to educate themselves either or don't think it is necessary!

GS Mom, I would venture to say that less than 1% of those that identify themselves as GSD breeders have a clue when it comes to genetics or lines. Most repeat the same breedings over and over because 'That's what's available in their kennel.' Your wasting your time. When you read stupid crap like, "Isn't supplying the public with access to these fine animals a legitimate reason for breeding," you know it's a lost cause. Hopefully, the public will get smarter and quit buying from these slugs. I know, "this is America and everyone has the freedom to put any two mongrels together and milk the unknowing public for whatever they can get."

GS Mom, I think you make several good points. spook, why did you not just answer Blitzen's Question?

I am happy to say: I have loved the breed for 30yrs. I always wanted one since I was 10. Learned as much as I could and did alot of reading when I was a kid. Got married young raised 2 kids. They grew up and I knew I would have the time to spend with my pup. I learned about schutzhund when I was walking in the woods and saw a trial going on. I was hooked. I did all the research on schutzhund and what was required and how much time was involved. Found a breeder that was close to me, very lucky and(very important since I needed help to train my pup) I got my new pup(workingline female) did everything I was told to do in raising my future schutzhund prospect. Started training her at 3months old once a week and as she got older I trained twice aweek. Well at 15mos old got her BH,AD,CGC and her SG show rating. Continued to train and in the mean time she achieved her CD before she was 2 in 3 shows.I whelped my first litter of 10 awesome pups when she was 2. After her litter back to training and we recieved are SCH1 and the next day recieved a KKL1 This was done this past May. All this was done while I was working full time and doing family stuff on top of being a single parent. I am not looking for a pat on the back. I say this because I did all this because I love the breed and want to see that it remain what it suppose to be "a true working dog" I also want to say none of this would have happened without my TD and club members who supported me and kept me going even through the bad times. As we continue to train for our 2 and 3, the bond we have developed in the last 4 yrs will only get stronger. So for all you people who don't have time to train and title your breeding dogs/bitches just look what you are missing out on.

You bred her when she had her AD, BH, and CD? SchH1 came after the first litter? How was the litter? How old are they now and what are they doing?

Yes, she had all the above except the Sch1 and KKL1. I did attempt her Sch1 before ahe was bred but she did not pass tracking.(not my favorite thing of the 3 phases) The litter was and is amazing. All 10 ( 6 boys 4 girls)were and are healthy. 6 are currently in working homes. Drug, Sch and French Ring. 4 are in active pet homes and I do get to see them often. All have excellent temperments and the ability to do any type of work. 2 of the so called pets have been evaluated for sch and would have made super super working dogs. 8 of the pups have had there hips checked and all came back very good. The owners of the others chose not to do the hips. They will be 2 yrs at the end of Feb. I myself did not keep a pup (big mistake) but I knew I was going to bred my female again AFTER she got her Sch1 and breed survey. That is why it was 2 yrs before I bred her before. I did breed her in Nov. and at 5 1/2 weeks into her pregnancy she developed Pyo and lost the litter and almost her life. SHe had to have an emergency spay. I am sad that I did not have a chance to keep a pup from her but if I lost her I don't know what I would have done. We do have 3 of her pups in our club and I get to see them every week.

Watching from the outside, I can see just about everyone's point. One person's Tootsie Roll is another person's Turd. Its true that the majority of fanciers, would rather have a more docile pet type GSD than a wired dog off top working lines. Many into conformation and bench shows, could care less about their GSD's drive and working ability, and are only concerned with appearance. The truth is that unless its a proven repeat breeding, just about any breeding is a roll of the dice. Of course there are many measures that can be taken to up the odds, but one never knows for sure. On one side there are those who consider Shutzhund a game. Shutzhund is to reality, like point karate is to full contact. The way any living thing trains, be it dog or man, is the way it will react in a reality situation. I would much rather be in a real life combat situation against a serious Shutzhund 3 dog, than have to go against a serious, untrained personal protection dog who has evil intentions on his mind. A Man or dog is easier to defeat when they are predictable. A dog used to training on a sleeve would be so much more predictable that a dog apt to hit anything but the sleeve. I have yet to see a pup or dog that can read a degree or any type paper. If a person has faith in a breeding pair, and breeds to keep for their own use, or is willing to either keep the whole litter or buy back at any time, any puppy they would sell, then I see nothing wrong with breeding untitled dogs. Having said this, I would of course like to have a dynamic pedigree that could back making said breeding. There is a flip side to this coin, and I also see the point of those who demand degrees, and only love working dogs. I can turn a stray into a german shepherd in three generations. Simply breed a stray to a german shepherd then take the offspring and breed it to a german shepherd. Then take this offspring and breed back to a german shepherd. For what its worth, you have a german shepherd. I make this statement to show that a working GSD bred to a backyard GSD . Then breed that off spring back to another backyard GSD and then repeat it one more time by breeding that offspring to another backyard GSD. Then for what it is worth, you do not have a working GSD. Because certain lines have been bred to work and you bred them exactly the opposite. Therefore you have almost created a new breed. You have erased those genetics that are so important in establishing the working breed. If you breed for pets and ignore the working gene you do not have a working GSD. If you breed for conformation and ignore the working gene you do not have a working GSD. Different Strokes.................