Are Titles Necessary Before Breeding? - Page 4

hodie, a few answers to your questions. I do consider myself naive and still a newbie to the breeding side of the GSD. Though I have had GSD's all my life, so don't necessarilly think I am completely naive of the breed, But always know that I am and will always be learning, The day I stop learning is the day I should simply put a bullet in my head. I have 4 pups with K-9 officers, Several in SchH training, one in SAR training and two in Therapy. Yes there are some that are just companion dogs/family members. You've never sold a dog as a family member ? have none of the breeders of this board produced a "pet" quality pup ?? Excellent Temperaments... Training Directors, Judges, Vets, Fellow breeders, (who have seen and ineracted with my dogs) Buyers, onlookers, and litterally every single person we have ever met with our dogs all comment on the excellent temperaments. Now I know the average Joe does not probably know what a temperament test is, However I am willing to trust my Training Directors, Judges, Veterinarians, and Fellow Breeders. Should I not be trusting what they are saying ?? What makes an excellent temperament Hodie ?? Is it a dog that will jump in your lap when you sit at my table ? Is it a dog that will allow your child hug him/her ? Is it a dog that will lye down on the floor as to be ever so careful with the just over a year baby ? How about the dog will allow a baby raccoon to nurse from her ? How about the dog will allow a baby cougar to frolic and snuggle and rub on her ? How about the dogs that will allow a child to scale my fence make his way accross the back 2 acres all the way to my back door being escourted by 6 dogs and then allow that child that they've never met before to walk through my back door ? Is it the dog that approach you so confidently that he/she jumps on you and is happy to meet you ? Is it the dog that everyone says will go courage pronounced ? Is it the dog that will follow you to every room you travel to and wait outside the bathroom door for you to return ? Most importantly, Understand I do have a clue when it comes to temperaments, And I understand how important temperaments are to ANY breeding program, I feel my dogs have excellent temperaments, and I am qualified to testify as an expert witness in the courts about temperaments, and therefore I do beleive that qualifies me to also verify my own dogs temperaments accurately. Continued....

We are not "going" to do anything we ARE doing. Everyone started somewhere... Did you come into this breed knowing all, having all, doing all absolutely 100% correctly and perfectly ? Everyone starts somewhere, keep this in mind please ! No I'm not perfect, I'm working on improving things daily here, it's just the way it is ! But at least I am working on it, and at very least, I am not out there causing a possible "outbreak" of a disease that could litterally "wipe out" hundreds of good dogs by making a really stupid mistake that even the most novice breeder should know better than to make. Yes I know some of what is required before KKL, which is exactly my point, we do have plans for it but does that mean tommorow ? NO, hopefully in the nearer than farther furture though. My point was that we are trying to get there, No we are not there yet, But I still beleive that my dogs have something to offer the breed, and I will continue to develop upon they're best assets while trying to eliminate some of the poorer assets of the breed, by making sure that for several generations hips are good or better, I am working on it, What more am I to do than work on it ? I am not going to go out and purchase a SchH titled dog just so I can "Claim" to be the all mighty of richeous breeders. That's a load of .... and you all know it. The ? was asked are Titles necessary before breeding ? The common answer was NO they are not, and most who posted seemed to feel that Titles are not the "end all" to the holy grail of breeding or not breeding. about placing the "oops" litter, I came on here posted what our plans were and asked for any other suggestions or input, So I don't think that was horribly IGNORANT of me to do, quite the opposite Hodie, I think it makes me an open minded individual who leaves room for valid information and input, therefore continueing my education. Hope this clears a few things up, I would ad that in the past I have always viewed your post as insightful, sometimes harsh yes, but sometimes harsh it what it takes... so be it. and don't let that other individual stir it up too much I have not addressed that person for quite sometime and he still continues to stalk my every post just to piss me off. One Last Thing, those of you who wish to give me sh.. for wanting to continue my education only show your own ignorance and Lack of Dedication to the breed. And that is MY opinion.

Ohhh and I forgot, to the "cleaning up others messes" Have you forgotten that I too am one of those cleaners ? I see it every single day, I work my ass off 15+ hours a day every single day cleaning up others messes, You all think I'm a BYB try the guy down the road that has about 10 litters per year sells them for $100 bucks each and most die of parvo after the sale or they are brought to me for Euthanasia they are GSD's. I hate that guy, but guess that's all I am to you guys hhh ? Only the mess cleaner for any messes I make are my own damn self, mmm now if that's not eyes wide open I don't know what would be.

EchoMeadows, I was not going to spend anymore time on this, but because you did try to post a rational answer to my questions I will say just a few more things. Let me be clear: I RARELY, purposely say anything to be harsh. I am a direct person and I do not mince words. I speak my mind and many people dislike me for this. That is neither here nor there, but my intent in all of this is not to be harsh or to even single you out. You were "calling the kettle black" and I responded mostly to that. I do not care about this other person or persons who is/does give you S***, but some of what they said clearly hit a nerve and so have I. I looked at your web site during all this but now do not have the link handy or perhaps I would give you more specifics. It probably would be useless to do so. Though I think some of the things said were said by this other person to be hurtful, I will tell you now that I frankly was NOT impressed by your breeding stock. Again, that is neither here nor there and you can dismiss that. And no, a web site does not tell the entire story. But it does tell part of it. What I do find problematic is that you have still failed to answer the most salient questions and discuss the most important issues. For example, you have not honestly answered why you breed. Nor have you answered the question about "what are you doing to improve the breed" other than to say your dogs are healthy and have two eyes etc. Secondly, I do not remember seeing any of your dogs having ANY type of recognized working certification or conformation rating, yet you say you are an expert this and in evaluation of temperament. I won't ask how you gained that expertise. Maybe you are, but unless other recognized experts in recognized positions with recognized organizations have rated a given dog, it is nothing. Unless you hold some recognized certification from a real organization, most courts I know of would certainly not consider you an expert. And courts who are sophisticated know that there are plenty of sham organizations without any standards who hand out designations without any standards. I could ask how many trials, shows, breed surveys or other types of working trials, seminars, lectures etc. you attended? Rather than continue asking questions of you which is likely pointless, let me tell you what I think about breeding. I endeavor not to be the only judge of a given dog I own. By the way, none of my dogs have come to me with titles. Those that have them have them because I spent the time, energy and money to do it and they earned those titles at real publicly held trials and shows judged by recognized judges in recognized organizations. All of my dogs have conformation ratings. I also hold certifications I won't go into here. Continued:

EchoMeadows, I was not going to spend anymore time on this, but because you did try to post a rational answer to my questions I will say just a few more things. Let me be clear: I RARELY, purposely say anything to be harsh. I am a direct person and I do not mince words. I speak my mind and many people dislike me for this. That is neither here nor there, but my intent in all of this is not to be harsh or to even single you out. You were "calling the kettle black" and I responded mostly to that. I do not care about this other person or persons who is/does give you S***, but some of what they said clearly hit a nerve and so have I. I looked at your web site during all this but now do not have the link handy or perhaps I would give you more specifics. It probably would be useless to do so. Though I think some of the things said were said by this other person to be hurtful, I will tell you now that I frankly was NOT impressed by your breeding stock. Again, that is neither here nor there and you can dismiss that. And no, a web site does not tell the entire story. But it does tell part of it. What I do find problematic is that you have still failed to answer the most salient questions and discuss the most important issues. For example, you have not honestly answered why you breed. Nor have you answered the question about "what are you doing to improve the breed" other than to say your dogs are healthy and have two eyes etc. Secondly, I do not remember seeing any of your dogs having ANY type of recognized working certification or conformation rating, yet you say you are an expert this and in evaluation of temperament. I won't ask how you gained that expertise. Maybe you are, but unless other recognized experts in recognized positions with recognized organizations have rated a given dog, it is nothing. Unless you hold some recognized certification from a real organization, most courts I know of would certainly not consider you an expert. And courts who are sophisticated know that there are plenty of sham organizations without any standards who hand out designations without any standards. I could ask how many trials, shows, breed surveys or other types of working trials, seminars, lectures etc. you attended? Rather than continue asking questions of you which is likely pointless, let me tell you what I think about breeding. I endeavor not to be the only judge of a given dog I own. By the way, none of my dogs have come to me with titles. Those that have them have them because I spent the time, energy and money to do it and they earned those titles at real publicly held trials and shows judged by recognized judges in recognized organizations. All of my dogs have conformation ratings. I also hold certifications I won't go into here. Continued:

Continued here. Sorry for the duplicate. For some reason, the site is not posting correctly again today. Here is the second part: I listen carefully to what judges have said about my dogs. I look and try to understand how each dog meets or does not meet the standard. In other words, I look carefully to be able to recognize the faults that could be present in a dog, whether it be in conformation, working ability, or temperament. Fortunately, most of my dogs are not faulty in temperament, although a few are a little sharp. I select dogs carefully, so those that do have conformation shortcomings are not major. But in other words, I look at each dog to see more than it has two eyes, four legs, two ears etc. I select my dogs very carefully so that I know when I get them, besides clear individual differences, that yes, they can and will work given appropriate training. If I breed, yes, I will, in fact be honest and say I am going to breed the litter for money. At the most basic level, I, like most people, must. I have spent a fortune on the dogs I have and since I am not independently wealthy, it does come to mind that if I am to continue enjoying my hobby, I must somehow make it pay for itself. So yes, in the end, I too, if and when I breed another litter and sell some pups (which is not a given), I will be breeding for money. That money may also help me continue the GSD rescue efforts I have made which in some years have cost me more than $25,000 a year out of my own pocket. So yes, even for me, at the most basic level, it comes down to money. Let me talk about my breeding considerations: I breed dogs that others have recognized and RECORDED as having been good representatives of the breed. As a hypothetical example, lets' say I choose to breed a female, who had one transitional vertebrae, "a" fast normal hips, a short and steep croup, and light eyes, I would select a male who is likely to contribute positively to give some chance that the resulting pups will not have those faults. I could also talk more about what I would study about the bloodlines, the health background of the individual dogs and their immediate ancestors, their working ability, what exactly each dogs' temperament is like etc. etc. etc., Since this is hypothetical, I won't take the time to do so. In other words, I breed and do not simply say ok, let me put these two dogs together as so many others do. I do not fault anyone for starting at the beginning. I do fault people who do not take every measure to learn BEFORE they are well into breeding. That is the difference between me and many others. You can consider this harsh or whatever. Initially, my posts were meant in general terms. To a point, even this post is meant in general terms. I would encourage you to spend some of the time you put into other things, including breeding litters, to go out and participate more, even if you have to drive, so that you do, in fact, gain the expertise you seek by interacting with others who have spent years and years in the breed and who are, in fact, recognized experts.

It did not post my first response so I'll try again... First I wanted to say Hodie, That I appreciate you taking the time to further elaborate your points. I do not find sharp, harsh, or blunt responses as inappropriate, quite frankly they are what is needed from time to time, to get the point accross. I will also say it was not my intention to seemingly "lash" out at you, I've been on the chopping block lately and have had a gut full. I had intended not to return here but on the advice of the breeders whom I seek approval and knowledge from they suggested that I return and reapproach with a different persepective. So here I am. To answer your questions... Why do we breed, Simple, I love these dogs with all my heart, and wish to provide the same GSD expeirence and blessing that I have been given with others. What are we improving... Temperament... Our dogs have "correct" structure, Nice Drives, Natural Instincts, and Excellent Temperaments, Who judges these temperaments, well here ya go Breeders I am learning from, Trainers I train with, Judges I trial under, Judges my kids show under, and Yes myself, the latter probably the most harsh judge of temperament of all. I know what I want in a dog, and I have produced it and I wish to continue with that style of dog, apparently so do my buyers, and they're trainers as well, I have 2 other clubs singing high praises over our dogs Natural ability for schH sport, and over they're Excellent Temperaments. who am I to argue with them and they're expeirience ? during the BH my dog Twister actually jumped on the judge in the temperament test of the BH, needless to say he received high praise for his confidence and outgoing personality, The judge smiled when he commented on the Temperament of Twister. Am I to argue with that ?? Continued...

I too look at individual dogs... I will with the help of other breeders honestly evaluate a female/male and attempt to with the knowledge and advice of the other breeders try to improve/eleviate minor faults. Dogs must compliment each other, One thing I won't even consider is a faulty temperament. Bad Temperament NO breeding !! I am taking the steps you suggest, I use the advice of vetran breeders, Veterinarians, Trainers, Judges, and other sport goers. I plan to KKL yes I know what that involves, besides the 500 mile trip, that's why it's a plan still and not yet a done. I plan to continue with training and trialing for SchH titles, But will not now or ever agree the that KKL and SchH titles are the end all holy grail of yes or no to breeding, I think that would be narrow minded and quite ignorant of anyone to beleive those things. SchH3 and KKL1 = Breed it. I don't beleive that. I do beleive that it helps in qualifying but will never beleive it to be the "end all" I don't feel I was "calling the kettle black" I do at the very least the bare minimum of Health checks and hip x-rays before breeding, That in the case of zmeli was NOT DONE !!!! she divulged that information to Yellowrose. so at least in my mind I was NOT calling the kettle black. The expert witness thing... I am considered in a court of law an expert witness regarding the temperament of a dog by the court. I guess I don't know how to further elaborate on that one, but to say I have been on the stand before and will be on the stand again to testify to a given dogs Temperament and evaluation, and that the court takes into consideration all the information I give them, and my opinion is given credit by the court. I don't have a title if that's what your asking for. I have attended some classes and training for evaluations and temperament testing. The rescue dogs... did you even notice on our website that we also do rescue work, I even talked two people who had originally contacted me wanting a puppy into these rescue dogs, I AM DAMN PROUD OF THAT !!! Now these folks are "hooked" on rescue dogs and have stated that they will seek a rescue dog in the future when they are ready to add another dog to they're home. I am very proud of that, should I not be ?? I am also proud to say that pups we have sold are doing very well in they're training, and that those training directors also praise these dogs temperaments, natural insticts, Drive and ability. I am not gonna say well your stupid cause so and so on the gsd pedigree site said my dogs are crap. I am going to listen to what 30 year vetrans on the field have to say about my dogs, and give little consideration to what anyone who has never met/seen my dogs have to say. I don't think that is being naive. Now I know why everyone warned me when I was looking into this, They all said... This is a CutThroat business and you will have all kinds of people trying to stop you, simply because they don't want the competition. I don't look at anyone as competition, I look at them as knowledgable resources. and seek they're honest opinions/advice. But I will not be derailed from something I beleive in simply because so and so said so. Again Hodie I will say Thank You for your time and efforts put into your posts, I hope I have answered all of your questions.

EchoMeadows You Are NUTS!

It takes one to know one ,who ever u are Arrakis....stop the name calling.....hope u have a PHD behind ur name if ur gonna hand out adjectives and adverbs about board participants.......