IPO-R title - Page 2

GSD were originally bred for herding and to a slightly lesser extent "Red Cross SAR dogs", trailing/trackers and message deliverers in trench warfare, LONG before they did "sport bite work".  In fact, Max, while alive, went out of his way to introduce herding trials in order to preserve the foundation skills of where the breed came from in the first place.  I don't know why some of you think the bite work has any relevance to the actual working ability of the dog, ESPECIALLY, in its modern incarnation, which is nothing like it was in 1899.  Some of you are essentially "standing your ground" on the basis of something that didn't exist when the founder of the SV was alive.  You sound like morons, quite frankly, whom are idolizing the "post-Max" SV.  GSD's were herding and SAR dogs first, not the other way around, as some are claiming here.

Why hasn't anyone started talking about the actual rules yet?  Thats what lober911 is here for.  I personally have gotten so many different official answers that I do believe its possible rule-wise to get a show rating with a RH or HGH.  Does anyone know whats happening for sure in Europe?  I was told they started accepting RH and HGH for show ratings, this year, in 2013, but the RH and HGH scores can only come from a particular kind of SV judge.

speaking of moron, another one that has no clue why grip is important in a herding dog and is something that was most definitely tested and is essential in evaluating a German Shepherd Dog.

@zdog you're right it is tested, but since you know so much about the HGH, feel free to explain how that "grip" is different from IPO.  People who do C course know this answer.

BTW, I said "sport bite work" and "modern incarnation", I guess you need thing s-p-e-l-l-e-d out for you, since you can't read between the lines of things being implied in written form.

I'll repeat myself and I will repeat it over and over again until people start talking about actual rules and not philosophies on dog breeding:

Why hasn't anyone started talking about the actual rules yet?  Thats what lober911 is here for.  I personally have gotten so many different official answers that I do believe its possible rule-wise to get a show rating with a RH or HGH.  Does anyone know whats happening for sure in Europe?  I was told they started accepting RH and HGH for show ratings, this year, in 2013, but the RH and HGH scores can only come from a particular kind of SV judge.

don't talk to me about "fake" trials, you think I condone them?  Didn't you see where I said breeders use honest assessments of real tests that mentally and physically test their dogs?  Faking a service dog is no better than faking an ipo title or faking a PPD title or anything else.  The title doesn't make it breedable by my standards, but using the test to  assess your dog and having it pass does.  ALL of that test.  

I never said a SAR dog wasn't a working dog. an incomplete dog can be a working dog, they're all over the place, drug dogs, narc dogs, PD dogs, military dogs, service dogs etc.  They're working dogs, NOT breeding dogs.  There's a difference.  IF your working dog can NOT pass a breed suitability test then it shouldn't be bred.  It's simple.  There's a reason dogs held to that standard have formed the backbone of every working discipline the world over for 100 years.  If you don't want to adhere to it, don't.  See where it takes you, there are plenty of examples to draw from in all sorts of breeds, GSD's included.

I never said you must die soon because your dog wasn't worth it.  Why are so many of you so damn dramatic?  read something for what it is saying, quit looking for offense in every sentence.  I don't care if SAR dogs aren't allowed to do bitework.  If they aren't, then you can't fully quantify and qualify their genetics and breeding quality.  Sorry.  and plenty of dogs can make fine SAR dogs and not be remotely breedable.  I know a lot of people that do SAR, I train with them too.  They have disaster dogs, certified and everything and I wouldn't consider 90% breed worthy.  

@zdog You still didn't explain how an HGH "grip" is different from IPO/SchH. BTW, I said "sport bite work" and "modern incarnation", you are very far off tangent here.  We are talking about Rettungshunde titles.  Do you know what that is?

I'll repeat myself and I will repeat it over and over again until people start talking about actual rules and not philosophies on dog breeding:

Why hasn't anyone started talking about the actual rules yet?  Thats what lober911 is here for.  I personally have gotten so many different official answers that I do believe its possible rule-wise to get a show rating with a RH or HGH.  Does anyone know whats happening for sure in Europe?  I was told they started accepting RH and HGH for show ratings, this year, in 2013, but the RH and HGH scores can only come from a particular kind of SV judge.

↵you said this and then called us morons.  now you backtrack and talk about "implied" meanings.  Get your  words out and say what you mean.  Grips are important, bitework is important.  It needs to be tested, if your dog can't do it, it can't be fully tested.  You can talk about sport and poo poo on it all you want.  Your dog doesn't need to have 100 pts in a sport, but it's worthy of being bred, it should have no problems passing an IPO "sport" trial.  The trials never proved anything other than to show that some breeders really did put their dogs thru the rigors of testing and training to see what they had.  It's how I find out what my dogs have.  The trial is just for fun.

 I don't know why some of you think the bite work has any relevance to the actual working ability of the dog, ESPECIALLY, in its modern incarnation, which is nothing like it was in 1899.

 

I was going to leave my opinion to myself......but now....I think not.

Zdog...self anointed?.....Tell that to the GSD handlers who worked the Pentagon, Katrina, and World trade center to name a few. I do agree with you...there are some rescue dog groups that have highly questionable qualification standards, but we're not talking about them. We're talking about titling dogs for rescue with standards developed by the IRO & FCI. The same governing body the writes the standards for IPO. Furthermore, in order to be a certified rescue dog, in most of Europe, the dog must have passed at a minimum the RH-E (rescue dog suitability). So....this is not just some useless "title" written up over someone's kitchen table.

Why should the rescue dog title be any different than an IPO or HGH? You hard core IPO believers are not being asked to bring "all kinds of others" into the fold.
You are being asked to recognize a working facet of the GSD that has been around a long time and plays an important role in preserving the original intent of the breed.
Do you think that rescue dogs have less nerve, drive, physical and mental stamina than an IPO or HGH dogs? If you do then you need to do some research because you a wrong. 
Do you die hard IPO handlers train your dogs in all weather conditions, on all manor of terrain, night or day, over dead fall, through water, climbing boulder out crops, across cactus beds....and I can go on....I think not.

Kevin...you may not have said it but your statement implies it......When someone says that breeding to a certified rescue dog (when I say certified I mean one ready to deploy into the field) is watering down the breed standard, it's incredibly insulting to those of us who take this breed and our job seriously.

 

i don't know what an RH title is other than some people that have disaster dogs around here talk about rubble piles and stuff.  Can't say an RH title has been performed ever at a trial I was at.  I supposed I could read about it and get back to you :)

and before they had a "Modern incarnation" of the HGH trial, they had manwork just like schutzhund.  Or at least from what I've read.  Again, HGH has what, 1 maybe 2 trials a year in a country this size? 

@clc29  the hardcore IPO guys have no idea, most of their dogs could NEVER pass an FH or StP, let alone the more rigorous RH-1/2. 

@zdog I understand now, you are partially illiterate and can't understand a paragraph in its full context.  That's fine, other folks who know how to read can simply ignore your posts. 

BTW, You still haven't explained the differences between an HGH and IPO "grip", IT IS different.

I'll repeat myself and I will repeat it over and over again until people start talking about actual rules and not philosophies on dog breeding:

Why hasn't anyone started talking about the actual rules yet?  Thats what lober911 is here for.  I personally have gotten so many different official answers that I do believe its possible rule-wise to get a show rating with a RH or HGH.  Does anyone know whats happening for sure in Europe?  I was told they started accepting RH and HGH for show ratings, this year, in 2013, but the RH and HGH scores can only come from a particular kind of SV judge.

SV - Zuchtschauordnung 2013:
 
2.3. Gebrauchshund-Klassen für Hunde ab dem vollendeten 2. Lebensjahr.
2.4. Hunde nach II.2.3. müssen ein Ausbildungskennzeichen von mindestens IPO1 oder eine HGH-Prüfung oder eine bestandene RH2-Prüfung in der Stufe B (IPO-R-F, -FL, -T, -L oder -W) nachweisen.

  This is current SV law for the working dog classes on a show.