30# of Bones !,,and a beef heart,, - Page 4

Ruger1, when we had the opportunity to talk at the WUSV event, I think I said something to the effect that unfortunately, with a strong, sharp dog like Prince, you will spend his entire life having to be 'on guard' all the time, and I believe I also expressed sympathies for you, because it isn't an easy way to live. When Slamdunc says he doesn't think you & your husband fully 'get it' yet, I  understand him to be saying something like this:  You have to dress yourself in, and LIVE this truth: that EVERYTHING, even the tiniest motion, action, or blink made by you or any other person, is a CRITICAL point when it comes to Prince. That's why I sympathized with you back in Philly, because it really is not an easy way to live, and if you make even a single misstep, it can mean the end of your dog's life. THAT'S what you need to 'get'--there is absolutely NOTHING you can do with, for, to or around this dog that is inconsequential, like it would be with the average family dog.  It ALL matters. And it's exhausting to live like this, but that's how it has to be with this type of dog if he is to spend his lifetime with you without endangering you, your family or anyone who sets foot on your property.

I know you love Prince, and I know that you are 100% committed to him, but when you live with a dog like him, it's akin to living in a war zone 24/7/365 as far as the stress it places on you is concerned--because you ALL have to be fully focused and aware of your every finger twitch; and you can't just 'give a dog a bone' the way those of us with easier dogs are able to do... With a dog like this, just giving him a bone has to be a calculated exercise, planned out with contingencies accounted for if something interferes with your plan, because if you aren't prepared for the unexpected interference you find yourself where you were today when your decided to try and play '2-ball' with his bone in place of one of the balls: with him having an opening to challenge you, and you in no position to counter the challenge effectively yet safely. He won a round again today, and there's no room for Prince to win even a single round without it affecting the entire structure that his life depends upon.

Yes, bones generally are 'high value resources' to most dogs, and it is not unusual for very 'cocky' dogs to try their owner over possession of them at least once.  When it comes to dogs like Prince, he needs to believe that EVERYTHING in the world is owned by YOU--EVERYTHING--and he needs to know that without you having to prove it over and over again. In keeping with the whole 'never give a command you can't enforce/never put yourself in a situation where you lose your power to control things', giving Prince his first bone needed planning, and should have been done as a reward for having completed a high-value task [an exercise he finds particularly difficult to execute correctly, or even an entire work session, for example]. That way you could have given him the bone, and then just left him to it until he grew bored with it, instead of creating an opportunity for conflict. On the plus side, you did pick up the bone and put it away, instead of leaving it lying around--giving you control of the resource again. 

Having met you IRL, I don't question whether Prince is in the 'right' hands--most owners would have sent him packing a long time ago, and while Slamdunc has more direct info so I believe him when he says the boy has been indulged [aka 'spoiled' but I dislike that term...it suggests something rotten beyond redemption] I also believe he would have been a hard dog for the average owner even if he hadn't enjoyed that leniency in his formative stages, from what I know of the breeding behind him. It would likely be easier for you and Prince if it were JUST the two of you--because the more people added to the equation, the more variables and lapses in practices there are, and the harder it is to maintain the all-important structure this dog MUST have for his life. It's hard to counter for what others in the household are or are not doing, on top of holding your own ground, too.

I'd suggest you hold off on the bones until you've planned out how you will give him access to that resource, and how you'll retrieve it again for the next time. I know you've put a lot of work into Prince, and I also know it's not possible to never put a foot wrong [no reference to today's bone-kicking attempt intended]; still, you can't loosen the reins with him because he's been compliant and lulled you into thinking you've got the whole thing on lock.

It ain't what you signed up for, but it's what you've got, and with Slamdunc, Kelly, Keith, etc. available for advice and assistance, you've got a support system that will call you on it if you don't hold the line, but who will also share their knowledge, skills and experience with you as long as you're committed to putting it into action.

 

Slamdunc, are you on a computer or a phone? If it's a computer, hit 'insert' button on your keyboard and that ought to clear up the problem with what you've already written being replaced by what you're typing.

If you're on a phone, I don't think I can help. I only have a 'semi-smart' phone.
 

I have a friend and fellow K-9 handler in NY that was badly mauled when a muzzle came off during training.  The point is that muzzles can come if not properly fitted and tight.  If Prince's muzzle had come off your friend would have been in big trouble. 

I thought this forum couldn't get more annoying and frustrating...........Now my sentences get erased as I type..................Another paragraph gone...................

Hexe,
Excellent post!  I don't know what the insert key will do but I just hit it.  I agree with your entire post and Kelly is an excellent resource, Keith, sorry not so much. 

Yes, this is a 24/7 365 vigilant watch with a dog like this.  I own one now and I am always on guard.  I owned one very much like Prince, only coupled with higher drives, serious rage and handler aggression and spent countless hours working with that dog to control his rage.  That dog nailed me on stage on the WWE Monday Night Raw Live TV.  I loved that dog but he was a pain in the ass at times. 

I typed so much earlier I don't know where to start again.

Here is the thing, Prince keeps winning all of these little battles and challenges.  He asserts himself and he wins.  The bone, Prince 1, Deanna 0.

The friend, Prince - grand slam, Deanna, family and friends - TKO. 

These little challenges and battles all add up.  They become missed opportunities to correct the behavior and big boosts to Princes ego and his role.  Anything less than knocking the crap out of Prince instantly for the assault on your friend was a big mistake on your husbands and your part.  That is what gets me.  I hope that was clearer.  I know you love Prince, Prince is lucky to have you and I'm sure he cherishes you.  But, realize what he is and how he needs to be handled.  Give me a call, send me a PM or an email.  It is too frustrating to type anything of detail here.  Give Kelly a call, she would be the best one as she has first hand experience with prince.  I'm happy to help............Just not here any longer. 

~~Hubby says give him the bone and leave him alone!! He will be fine

This shows "hubby" doesn't "get it" yet.

Waves at my friend Deanna. Best of luck with you and Prince. I have owned a couple of dogs that were completely insane and no Jesus moment would change their behavior. Had one that would and did become more aggressive. Please proceed with caution and talk to Kelly as soon as possible.

If you need to talk I am there to listen.
 

Deanna,

I had Princes mother for a short time and she was a very strong and stubborn bitch even at a young age and notwithstanding her show line roots.  She was not typically sharp in her aggression but very dominant.  Very different for her "type."

All on here are advocating correctly that you had a "missed opportunity" with Prince; and, they are quite correct.

However, even the best trainers miss opportunities either due to timing or not being properly equipped to handle a given situation.  When this happens to me I immediately acknowledge to myself that "the SOB got me on that one.  Good on ya' pal.". But then I follow up with "staged" events where I am indeed properly equipped and mentally ready.  Sometimes multiple of these staged events until the lesson is learned.

You have no doubt done some of these scenarios with those from whom you have previously sought help.

In a pack setting, you may see alpha drop his bone and maybe even leave it.  He then casually surveys those around him essentially daring any of those beneath him to so much as look at it.  And, trust me should alpha see the remotest challenge his response would not be pretty.  But, his methods keep the peace and dogs understand and respect it.  You cannot be "human" in your approach to Prince and establishing/maintaining hierarchy in your household.

You very much need to plan and stage scenarios that replicate your "issues" even after Prince has been "good" for awhile.  "Dare" him to challenge you and your husbands authority at times and places of YOUR choosing.

And, maintain this mentality and  approach for as long as he is in your care.

Best of luck to you.
Kevin

Kevin,
Excellent post and you are 100% correct.  We all miss those "golden aha" moments when we could have taught the a dog a lesson.  There will always be times when the dog gets "one over on us."  However, Deanna has unfortunately missed many of these opportunities over the years and Prince has grown bolder each time.  As Kevin has correctly pointed out; you need to "set Prince up" to show this behavior and be prepared to properly correct this dog.  You need to "proof" him and even provoke him into challenging you.  He can have a bone, when you are ready to safely correct him for growling if you try to take it away.  You need to examine your mindset and realize he is a dog, not a puppy and not a child.  He is a strong dog and can handle firmness form you. 
 
I will add that you have gotten some very good advice here, from Hexe and Kevin.  I would add more but my posts keep getting erased as I type.

You have gotten some incorrect responses as expected as well,  Prince is not insane, he is not an uncontrollable dog, he's not even a bad dog, quite the opposite.  He should not be compared to "insane" dogs nor dealt with in the same fashion.  Prince is a rather smart, loving dog, with a sharp side that has learned that aggressive displays get results.  I would add that Prince is a very nice GSD overall, he does not have severe temperament issues.  He is a fairly strong dog who will dominate and take advantage of a kind hearted, animal lover like yourself.  As Kevin pointed out, and I have in the past, Prince is a dog who needs a strong structure and a strong leader.  The dog needs firm, fair, consistent rules, every minute of every day.  He will abide by those rules once they are set and he clearly understands them.  You need to learn to be a "benevolent dictator" with Prince and "harden up" for both your sakes.  If your Husband won't do it, then you must. 

I don't see a really huge issue with this dog and I don't think he has huge issues.  Probably a very nice dog that I would like to own, show and work.  Here is the upside, once you get control, Prince will be more relaxed and happier and so will you.  You do  not have to live on pins and needles with this dog.  But, you must be alert and vigilant and prepared to step in.  You must train this dog and set him up for both success and failure.  You must be prepared to correct this dog in a way that he instantly gets the message.