Your opinion shall be highly appreciated - Page 5

I really don't understand the problem.

Ibrahim, what obstacles are you encountering? Is it distrust or just that the dogs that you want are more expensive than you want pay? Are people unwilling to sell you dogs with higher potential because they don't feel they'll be utilized to their full potential (dog snobs)? 

What, exactly are you wanting? You mention showlines and the mixing of the two lines. Are you basically saying that folks in Jordan don't know enough about GSDs to handle a very high drive working line dog but want a dog that looks pretty? 

For example, would a Capri-type dog work in terms of size, structure, coat, etc.? I am in contact with a friend of her breeder's and they are currently breeding daughters of her littermates- I tried to get one but I was too late :(. Or what about the type I had in my last litter, the Aria cross w/the Ando vom Altenberger Land son? Is that physical type desireable enough for them as far as "showiness" if the temperament was easier to handle? I'm finding those pups to be super guard dogs, very intuitive, and while drivey, they're not unmanageable for the most part. Inexperienced owners need a word or two now and again but overall, rave reviews.

My point in mentioning them is that your idea of a working/show cross isn't a horrible one for what you seem to want- it just needs to be done CORRECTLY.

If you look back in this dogs pedigree you will find some of my favorite show line dogs; Lasso, Fanto, Tell...& even the 'iffier' side has some nice dogs going back a generation or so. I do believe the back pedigree has influence. So, he is in reality a black show line, which explains the rather extreme stack. ( and yes, the handlers 'charms' on exhibit are a conscience attempt to influence a buyer, not a particularly ethical one ) I would like to see this dog standing naturally. I agree, no reason why they can't send a video, enough videos are coming from the Ukraine about what's going on there, why can't you see a video showing his movement. That's a BIG red flag for me. His face & expression are lovely. Even adult dogs bought for breeding are a crap shoot, if you can't see them, interact with them, see their progeny. Very few breeders release a star producer, especially for a reasonable price, so they may very well be trying to make some detail of this dog less obvious. If you were looking for a companion, I'd say go for it, he's likely a very nice dog; but to start a breeding program....

Sorry, Ibrahim, but I would have to know a LOT more about him. But you must follow your heart my friend, none of us can read that for you. Just try not to fall in love with any dog until you've researched him thoroughly....easier said than done! Good luck!

jackie harris

Was anybody of you able to find ANYTHING about this dog on the web? I wasn´t - and a dog with such an impressing tracking record should be mentioned somewhere?!? Is there any other known name than "Ark"?
I really don´t want to implement something, there are honest breeders in Eastern Europe, but there are a lot of scammers, too, and it´s almost impossible to get a hold on them. 2 or 3000 dollars over there is more than a lot of people are able to make within a whole year with hard work.

I wouldn't base a breeding program on ANY male. I'd base a breeding program on a super strong female. 

You need both, males and females of good quality, if you want to be successful. 
Maybe you should start kind of a training club, open for any breed. The next dog might be a German Shepherd. You know that I am a strong believer of: Training first, breeding later on...
What about Saudi Arabia and Egypt? How is there breeding stock? I know that at least in Egypt there are several honest breeders.

Hi Martina,

That looks like a good GSD and yes I am interested.

Ibrahim

I jjust came in, did not read all the new posts yet, saw Jenni's post though. I will try to explain our need. Jordan is a small community. We do not have any purebred GSD breeders locally. We still do not have FCI or SV branches here. We do not have a place to make registrations for dogs. People in general love dogs, buy and own them. Some people buy locally from local breeders, we have several breeds but not 100% pure, no papers. A puppy is sold at $ 100-200.

Some people import purebred dogs from outside. Last year a nice woman became the agent for Euro puppy, she imports puppies for people, all breeds, almost pet quality.

We can not title or evaluate HD/ED locally, I mean official titles and HD/ED. But we have vets who can x ray and give report about HD/ED status of a dog.

Me and few friends imported GSDs from Germany, Czech and recenly we imported a puppy from Serbia. None of us was or is an expert, we made mistakes and were misguided and you can say cheated in the quality of puppies we imported. We had an idea to start a GSD club and start breeding quality GSDs locally, both show line and work line.

For instance in the last ten years I myself imported 2 working line males, 2 work line females, 2 show males and 3 show line females. Only one work line male is fit for breeding, medically and temperament wise, structure is acceptable but not very good. Also only one female from show is fit for breeding medically and temperament wise, structure is acceptable but not very good. The other guys were lucky with one or two females.

We want to start breeding instead of importing, many people want to have a nice GSD but can not afford importing expenses. Many people would be able to spend $ 500-700 for a nice puppy.

We educate people (as much we know) on GSD. If we breed we must meet what we tell people what a good GSD is. We do not have enough good quality dogs to start with. We need to have few really good puppies, work and show, we are short on money and we do not have reliable source for a good puppy.

If we add up what we all have we can import a grown up stud that would cost us $ 5500 including shipping, or we can import 2 puppies at $ round 2000 each. The sources we know in Germany can provide puppies at this cost, but we will not buy from them again as quality did not turn out good. From Germany a good stud would cost not less than $ 10000 including shipping, we came across the black stud that fits our budget but I know the risks are high and quality might not be what we should start with in Showline.

In short, if we can produce worklines like Capri's and showlines like Crhuerta's we will be doing what we believe in and what people need. We do not need here top sport worklines and we don't need top gaiting showlines, but we need good dogs to start with.

I hope that sums up our "stupidity or unluckiness" so far.

Ibrahim

Jenni,

We need both a good male and a good female, we have no studs in the country, only our own (what we buy ourselves).

Ibrahim

We do not have the pleasure of making one more mistake with the money we have, if we spend it on the wrong dog, our ambitions will just vanish forever, so we will pass on this dog, I will tell the owner that we are not buying him and aplogize to her.

Ibrahim

I'd also be super wary of this... there's no reason they can't at least get you a short video of the dog. I'd want to know also how the dog works, about his temperment, etc. and would definitely at least have some friends go and check him out, if you can't. As Hired Dog said, you have a huge oppurtunity to breed dogs to the standard, not just showlines that look pretty.

As far as a breeding prospect goes, I'd keep looking. He's a pretty dog, I like his color (always a sucker for a black dog), and he has a "cute" expression/earset, but I do not like his structure at all. He has nice feet, and proper proportions (I think), but he is far too sloped in the back, his head isn't as strong as I'd like, etc. I don't know angles to compare. Pedigree-wise, he is also "iffy", and is it just me, or does he have that dominant black gene thing going on, that no one knows where it came from? I don't know, but I don't think he is a dog to base any kind of breeding program on, let alone the entire countries. But, that is just my opinion, as someone who is not a fan of the average (I say average because there are a few I like, and I believe I was discussing some with you a month or so ago!) showline's structure anyway.

Overall, I think I'd pass on this guy. Sorry Ibrahim. :( Best of luck on your search, I'd also look to females to start a program on, before males. Find good females and ship semen into the country if you have to... but just a good quality stud will not go very far if the females you're breeding him to are crap.