Rules for collecting and shipping frozen/chilled semen from Germany to USA - Page 3

This is one of the dogs in the database that was collected before his death. In an old ad (1998) the owner wrote they did not have the resources to breed and keep/train/breed more dogs at the moment, so they stored sperm from the dog for use at a later date. 
Born: October 24, 1984 - Died: February 24, 1998

CH Dreamweaver's Heineken

 

Why not, It really hurts no one, and they don't want to breed many, they just want to breed wisely.
The Son, Born in 2007

UKC/INTL CH CHIC Dreamweaver's Pabst Blue Ribbon

AKC  DN18488003
Hip: OFA: Good GS-80982G24M-VPI - Elbows: OFA: Normal GS-EL23412M24-VPI
DNA: DM Clear GS-DM2052/61M-VPI GS-TH414/28M-VPI / GS-CA783/49M/P-VPI 

 

Sitas, the SV world is small - as soon as puppies pop up people know. One look at the monthly Deckbescheinigung and the owner of the stud has a BIG problem.

Don´t misunderstand me - I don´t think using semen is a no-go at all, but we try to track down every single breeding for more than 100 years now, we don´t allow breedings outside of the breeding rules ( titles ), and the studs are limited in their use ( 60/30 ).

As soon as you allow this, it´s allowed for EVERY male, not only for the unknown stud of a hobby breeder. Can you imagine how many litters there would be out of the "champions" like Uran, Zamp, Larus, Vegas, and so on? The negative influence on the diversity of the bloodlines? No limitation, no proof ( semen as merchandise like in other breeds already ).

People wouldn´t stop. Why? Because they are people and money talks louder than conscience.

The semen for frozen and extended must be of a super high quality. Dogs cannot be collected everyday and atain such quality. There is a limit, as a dog can produce only so much.

If a dog is leased to someone in another country that allows collections, then how can the SV stop it, if breeding is being done in acordance with the kennel club rules of that country?
 

 

 

BTW... VA1 Etoo will be standing at Stud in New Zealand after World Sieger Show in Nürnberg, Germany.
Frozen Semen will be available worldwide.
 

I honestly see no benefit to restricting breedings of German  sires to live cover only. The only people who benefit are the German breeders. It is not in the best interests of the breed worldwide IMO. What am I missing? The owner of the stud dog still has control over who can or cannot purchase the semen.

Hello Susie,

I hope you are well.

I agree with you most of the time, but, not this one.

You wrote: "Can you imagine how many litters there would be out of the "champions" like Uran, Zamp, Larus, Vegas, and so on?"

This only means something in Germany. These dogs are sold as soon as their stud book is filled up and they go to other countries where they are bred to hundreds of times. Many times they are treated horribly and live terrible lives compared to being at home with the family they have known in Germany. Wouldn't the quality control be better if the SV allowed and monitored this. The owner of the dog could continue to make money from studding it and not sell it off to be used as a sperm machine for God only knows what in a country like China, or worse! 

OGBS, selling these dogs in my personal opinion is a shame, we don´t need to debate about this, we are on the same side.
Think about all the North and South Americans, Indians, Chinese, Egypts, Pakistan and Indonesian people - all of them  would jump on the bandwagon...

A "normal" VA dog is used as a stud for 2 years in Germany, afterwards people start using the "next generation", at this point most of the dogs get sold. At that point they are around 5 years old. It´s an unwritten rule that they shall be shown at least twice on the Siegerschau, afterwards...

"Special" dogs like the dogs I mentioned above are shown 3 times, the Germans tend to use them longer, afterwards ( no loss of money until the dog is 6 years old )

It´s pretty easy to count:

Example for a "normal" VA dog:

"Normal" VA dog = 70 paid breedings/year for 1000 € = 70 000 € / year for 2 years = 140 000 € ( might be less because of friends and politics)
Afterwards maybe 80 breedings within 2 years = 40 000 € / year ( the dog is now maybe 5 years old )
Afterwards maybe 40 breedings within 2 years = 20 000 € / year ( the dog is now maybe 7 years old )

Being a salesman, at what point would you sell the dog for around 200 000 € ? 5 years, right?

I´m a huge fan of VA dog owners, who DO NOT SELL their dogs...They really do like them...

Sitas, Etoo is a tricky case - as long as the owner is a German member of SV they he would not be allowed to use frozen semen, but Uday Jani is British...

Jyl,

No not really....The breeding is a ways off....but I'm very picky about what I want in the male, so I've started investigating. I'm also looking at males here in the US.

 

Stephan,

Thank you I did not know that.

I find your comment, " sv get for every stud 50 euro for a stud letter (Deckbescheiningung), every month you have round 500 studs in sv that makes 25000 euro( 33800 $) a month" interesting.

However, why wouldn't the stud dog owners just pass that fee on with frozen semen?

 

Suzie,

With all due respect to you and the SZ community, I disagree with most of the logic against the use of frozen semen.

In addition, I find the SZ's assumption that people outside Germany do not give any thought or consideration to the outcome of a breeding, insulting.

1. We have breeding rules - as soon as semen is shipped it might be used not according to the rules ( IPO titled, DNAed, breed surveyed dam ...)

I don't think the SZ rules are enforced as heavily as one might think. In 10 minutes I found 20 females (on Win-Sis) with SZ registration numbers that were not breed surveyed. I also found a couple of females that didn't have any titles. This tells me that the SZ rules have been overlooked and the SZ has allowed it. Also, I've heard from various people that midnight titling (to some degree) is still going on so what does titling really mean? I'm not saying that I disagree with the SZ breeding requirements, I'm just saying that if someone wants to get their female bred, people will always find a way to circumvent the rules.

2. This breed still is able to breed "naturally" - as soon as you allow the use of frozen semen this could change ( natural selection / health, drives )

I'm sorry.....but this is the biggest bunch of bull hocky I've ever heard.

The use of frozen semen is not going to change the health or drives of future generations. The female still has to be able to have the puppies, the semen still has to be viable and if a female is going to eat her puppies the use of frozen semen is not going to change that any more than the use of live covered semen. Heck some people help healthy dogs during live a breeding session what's natural about that?

Furthermore, the use of frozen semen would open up bloodlines to countries that do not have a wide range of dogs to choose from. Take Australia or South America for example. 

As soon as stud dog owners don´t need to fill out the "Deckbescheinigung" any more, and frozen/chilled semen is allowed, the "flavor of the day" dogs will be bred no longer 90 times/year, but 200, 300 or more

Again, why wouldn't the stud dog owners still have to fill out this paperwork and pass the fee to the female's owner?

Also, I totally agree with what Steve (OGBS) says in his post.

We didn´t start using breed books, DNA and proof for everything, only to give it up for nothing

What are you giving up? The DNA proofing goes both ways, what assurance do we have that the semen we've purchased is the semen that is shipped?

Why wouldn't the same rules still have to apply for females receiving shipped semen? We do have score books that list a dogs achievements the same as the SZ and OFA does record and publish hip and elbow results.

The SZ has worked hard at establishing a foundation for breeders to follow....I get that and I agree with most of what they are trying to maintain.

I agree with Blitzen.....I can not see any valid reason for restricting SZ stud dogs to live cover only and do not feel it is in the best interests of the breed world wide.

 

Lastly,...

The approved use of frozen semen would remove the undue stress, caused by oceanic travel and temporary relocation, on our females and their unborn puppies.

Not to mention the stress we owners endure not knowing if our females are being properly cared for while away.

CLC: Lastly,...

The approved use of frozen semen would remove the undue stress, caused by oceanic travel and temporary relocation, on our females and their unborn puppies.

Not to mention the stress we owners endure not knowing if our females are being properly cared for while away.

CLC, why the heck don´t you ( it´s not about you personally, it´s about all the countries involved in training, breeding, and showing German Shepherds ) just start to train and show the dogs THAT ARE ALREADY IN YOUR COUNTRY ? No more stress, no wasted money...

CLC, once again, you need to be aware of International breeding rules - WinSis is international, not German, and a breed survey is not stringently required, there is a difference between "Leistungszucht" and "Kör- und Leistungszucht", but I don´t think that´s interesting for you.

About the " biggest bunch of bull hocky " - I guess you never saw a "lazy" breeder and later on his sons

Your second sentence directed to me:
"In addition, I find the SZ's assumption that people outside Germany do not give any thought or consideration to the outcome of a breeding, insulting."

You totally misunderstood me - the Germans are not better, I don´t want to insult anybody - we are just forced to follow the rules, a lot of (German) people would send the sperm of their dogs everywhere in case they get money for it.

Kind regards

 

THere are dogs right here in the US that are every bit as good as anything ever produced in Germany.  They were bred here, they have lived here their whole lives.  Why don't we know about them?  or why don't most people know about them?  Because they are lazy sobs quick to fall for the latest marketing fad.  They know nothing of the dogs they own personally, how could they possibly know anything about someone else's dog?

Most don't know about them because they don't train much, when they do, that don't really know what they are looking at or why certain dogs look like they do and why it is or isn't important.  But let them hear a name and their eyes light up and they can talk about pedigrees till the cows come home.  I know people that have collected some of the worst specimens of dogs I can imagine, just because it came from a big name in Germany.  I can imagine how breeding would go in the states if Germans were allowed to send frozen semen freely.  

Generally speaking, this country is extremely freaking lazy when it comes to their dogs and you don't think shipping semen from Germany is going to change it at all?  I suggest paying more attention  to what is happening right here and now :)

 

and why do you think it is some studs can't cover females?  You think it's wise to just breed them anyway?  I think a system that has kept dogs around for millenia probably has a better understanding than someone looking to make some cash :)  and why don't you think it's important for genetics to change?  why do you think using semen from a 20 year old dead dog on every female you can get your hands on is good for a breed?

You don't think it will happen?  Please, litter after litter of shit is sold for big bucks in this country because they had so and so in the 4 generation.  Imagine how they could market if they could just keep dipping into the actual well of semen from the actual dog in the 4th generation.  

I've used frozen once. The paperwork was to allow it to be used on a specific female.
Name, registration number and microchip was on the form and the vet had to verify that the bitch he put it in was that exact bitch, this was sent to the AKC.