Rules for collecting and shipping frozen/chilled semen from Germany to USA - Page 4

and I have a dog that was from an AI, and i'm pretty confident the parents are who they say they were.  That's not the point.  The point is, instead of having 10 thousand combinations form offspring and having all sorts of gene mixing that we have now, though limited and requiring breeders to at least semi train and get to know offspring, they'll just dip in the Zamp semen pond for their next 10 generations of puppies and they'd sell like crazy because Zamp isn't 3 generations back, he's the father. Think of the marketing potential.   Bye, bye to the limited diversity we have.

I know there are breeders that can use this to actually further the breed, but they don't need it to do their job.    The problem is I think it gives a great tool to the hack jobs that happen to breed GSD's.

Cheri,

Glad to hear that you are doing your research now... Knowing the pedigree of your dog well...lol... I would look into the Belgian lines or even the Slovak or Czech lines..

I could not agree more about being picky on what to breed to...I am the same way... I research and research, as you are. There are alot of really nice dogs here in the USA that would be an option for your dog.

"The approved use of frozen semen would remove the undue stress, caused by oceanic travel and temporary relocation, on our females and their unborn puppies" clc29

That alone is reason enough to approve the use of frozen semen.

Suzie,

Sorry, I did mean for you to think I directed my statement about being insulting directly at you. I said the SZ, because they make the rules. However,  I have heard this train of thought from other people and so one would have to assume that is the general feeling amongst most Germans as well.

There are a lot of us (meaning the US because I can not speak for other countries) that do train and show. However, and this is only a small example, in Germany there are approximately 518 GSD breeders (according to the PDB) in it's 137,846 square miles (357,021 Km²) where as, the USA has 1424 GSD breeders in it's 3.794 million square miles (9.827 million Km²). Looking at these numbers one would have to see the difficulty and time needed for US people to achieve the same titles vs. someone from a European nation. Still, I think we are coming along...slowly but surely.

Why do you think I would not be interested in the difference between,

Kör- und Leistungszucht: Survey and Performance breeding, meaning that at least the first two generations(parents and grandparents) are titled and breed surveyed = Pink Papers.

and

Leistungszucht: Performance Breeding, at least the first two generations (parents and grandparents) are titled = White papers.

 

Your right.....I've never seen a lazy breeder, but I still contest that these dogs wouldn't last long term due to the fact that no body wants to breed that. 

 

Zdog,

Excuse me but I'm am not a lazy sob who fell for the latest marketing fad...my Drago daughter is maturing into a very nice dog.....thank you very much. But, I give most of the credit for that to her breeder who did a wonderful job matching his female to the right male.

I think your being a little harsh with your assessment........most people don't know or have not heard about these dogs for many reasons, yeah some are lazy, but I bet most don't have the resources or connections to find these fine specimens. How is a person who lives on the west coast supposed to know about the dog on the east coast that has never been shown above club level but is a great specimen of a GSD, especially if the owner is not a breeder. Through the grape vine? Or what if the owner of the fine specimen does not breed to outside females?

 

For the record.......(not sure if your comments were directed at me)

I never said that frozen semen would not change people's breeding ethics. Breeders of low integrity and those in it for the money aren't going to change they way they do business. Yes you might and probably would see an increase in "Named" studs being used more often by these breeders and by new breeders popping up for a piece of the pie. However, long term, I'm betting that things would settle down due to the logistics and cost of the process for frozen semen. That level of business is not for those of limited means.

I never said (and do not believe) that using semen collected from studs who can not cover females was/is a good idea.

I never said that it was not important for genetics to change....and.....In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that using semen from a deceased dog is a good idea.....to many negative variables.

 

At any rate..... I know my females strengths and weaknesses.  I will (eventually) find the right male for her, one that improves her weaknesses and strengthens her strengths. Be it with a stud from live cover or frozen semen.

 

Jyl,

Yes...that's me research...research.....then verify. 

To me is always best to have as many tools in the breeders hands as possible and to me the option to use freash,chilled or deep froozen in an added tool if ever needed,I have never used frozen before and may never but I want the option just in case it could help me in my breeding goals in the future,I see some studs in this country I like as far as working dogs goes,but Europe I feel still is far ahead of America in what they have to choose from,perhaps over time  the gap will close,its a shame Europe is so far away and harder to tap into their gene pool.

I wasn't calling you lazy, but yes, most breeders are.  It would be extremely tough for me to have to use two hands to count the number in each state that consistently breeds a good dog compared to the hundreds of breeders within each border.  In the midwest I can think of about 1-3 breeders per state that produces anything worth taking a drive to go and look at.  But this is a big country so 1 or 2 per state still leaves a lot of good dogs to go and get.  The rest rely on marketing and names to sell product.

How is someone on the west coast supposed to know about a dog not shown out of a club level on the east coast? I don't know, maybe they don't have the resources, but how is it going to help when now the east coast breeder doesn't even need to show a dog at the club level, they'll just buy some semen from a big name, or a puppy from semen from a dog with a big name and some female they've never seen either.  AI isn't cheap, neither is training and trialing a dog and AI is certainly a hell of a lot more effecient and nobody has to train for 2-3 years to prove their dog.  They just buy what's been proven or has a proven name.  The incentive to prove anything new goes down.

But as it stands, there are good dogs in every region in this country.  I'd feel better about breeding to a dog I knew in every way from seeing in training and competition on a regular basis than some dog from a different coast anyway.  You know why Europe is ahead of the US?  Because they get out and train their freaking dogs.  They know their dogs, they know the parents, they've seen them, they probably knew them from the time they were puppies.  They have worked or trained with the parents, grandparents, etc of their dogs.  They know them, inside and out.  Here?  yeah right.  Over half the people breeding dogs haven't even put a title on their own dog let alone multiples of the same family.  There's your difference.  There are a few here that do however, and coincidently, or not, they seem to consistently produce good dogs.

I may freeze semen from my male eventually.  I've never personally bred a litter and don't own any females, but unless I can find another male I like as much as my current one, I won't be in this breed much longer.  I do have one son from him (FWIW, a live cover breeding, my male's very first ties and to a maiden bitch, she got pregnant with 12 puppies) and while I love him and love training him, he is not his father (I did not expect him to be, completely different outcross).  If I collect and freeze semen, there's always the option of trying for another litter/male later on if I come across a complimentary female that is breedworthy and actually available.  Really, my only interest in breeding is producing dogs for myself, dogs that I like to train, title, compete with, exhibit, and LIVE with for 12+ years, not what I think people want to buy. Zdog is free to disagree, but I will say that I don't appreciate being lumped in with breeders that are lazy and breed without ever training or titling a dog.  My male has over 20 titles in 6 different sports and is Schutzhund titled and breed surveyed.  I have owned him since he was 7 weeks old and have never had anyone else training or titling my dog. His son is only 7 months old and already well on his way to titling in 3 different sports before he is 2 years old (and I haven't even started Schutzhund with him yet, he is not mature enough to start protection work at this age). I don't breed because I don't have time, space or money...that is all eaten up by the few dogs I keep and train, title, and compete with regularly.  I am competing 3 of 4 weekends this month alone and the 1 weekend we are not, I have training and two of my dogs are doing a public appearance thing in a local parade.

yes, when I made that comment, I had YOU specifically VKGSDs in mind.  Exactly LOL

anyway, you've been around enough.  Do you think the majority of breeders really know their dogs in side and out?  How about their parents?  Grandparents?  How many breeders actually train and title their own breeding stock?  The majority?  half?  a very small handful?  what are your honest answers?  or do you really think I was talking specifically about people like you?  Come on.

I don't know and don't really care, that's my point.  I'm not a breeder and do not aspire to be, but if I need to "lease" a nice female or co-breed a litter with a friend to get what I want, I suppose I will do that and even use frozen semen if I need to.  I believe we have very good quality dogs in North America so to use that as an argument that breeders are just lazy for not doing 100% live cover means I could also say that we have just as good quality dog here as in places where AI is not accepted.  I am not really for or against it.  In my experience, it can cost a lot and not work.  I just evaluate each litter based on its own purpose and merits and not simply the method of the sperm delivery :) I actually agree with most of your points in this thread, especially regarding the motivations of many breeders and their lack of understanding (or even attempting to understand) the dogs they are breeding, but I don't think AI is the problem.

 

"I know there are breeders that can use this to actually further the breed, but they don't need it to do their job.    The problem is I think it gives a great tool to the hack jobs that happen to breed GSD's."

Well if I want a really nice puppy by my current male, at some point I'm going to have to use AI from frozen because I'm being so picky about the female and by the time I am prepared to own and breed a female myself, my male will be long gone. It would be equally lazy and thoughtless to just use whatever female comes my way from any breeder showing interest in my male and expect to get what I want.

 

FWIW I would not use AI as a means to get around dogs that will not or cannot breed naturally.

 

Never mind, I can't fix stupid.