When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 10

oldnewguy... what may seem to a reasonable correction to you will be too much for someone else. the correction that will get one dogs attention, and make hime say ok.. I was disobedient, may shut another dog down. it is quite possible to meet those two standards and still have someone say you are being cruel. I've known very succesful trainers who review a session and say they worked to long or corrected to hard. me point is that peoples standards and goals are different, as different as our dogs. also training is not a science, its an art. there are no rules that apply 100% of the time. dogford.. I believe you either misunderstood what I've said or enjoy taking small portions of a post and repeating it out of context. I've always maintained that I've done some very good training and more importantly I've done a lot of shit training. I've used too much force and I've not used enough. I've always put my dog, training and accomplishments out for every one to see. this doesn't make me special just perhaps show a little of my perspective, or how I view things. I've failed and I've passed. but I've always been able to look back and say what I did was shit and change my training. if I'm not mistaken... you haven't shared your failures and succeses w. us. why is that

oldnewguymc Not to be dis-respectful but I dis-agree with you. One major factor in using dogs in war or in police work is for the dog to take the hit vs the human being. Yes I hate to ever see a dog hurt or killed but they are serving a purpose just like soldiers or police. I for one appreciate these men and women who risk their lives daily so the rest of us can live in peace. Are you saying dogs are more valuable than people? The dogs are a huge aid and save many lives but yes they will at times get killed just like our soldiers and police.

after rereading oldskools test for abuse, I must admit I'm guilty of abuse on a daily bases. he wrote... Are my motives anything but in the best interest of the dog or family members? THEN THIS IS ABUSIVE REGARDLESS OF THE SEVERITY OF THE CORRECTION. well, this got me thinking about the best interest of my dog. I guess it would be to let him run around and do what he wants. if he wants to not out, that's fine. if he'd rather not indicate an article, that's ok. cuz its in his best interest to have no accoutabilty and have fun. so if that is the test for abuse, I'm riddled w. it

Walter, lee hough, dogford4, the_end, beam_me_up_scotty, and her multitude of other troll identities is not worth wasting anytime on. This person has nothing to offer or share, unless you consider her habit of attacking people to be of value. If you want to see what lee/dogford4 can do, look for a video clip of her and her current schH3 female at the 2006 mid-east regional. C. Wilkins

"""But the problem that I see more and more is that the harshness is used to cut corners, save time and get higher scores."""" Please explain what you have seen done and who Olschool. If it was that troubling to you, did you report the abuse to the local animal control officers? For sure a touchy subject, who are you to decide for all? Too many different dogs with different characteristics and attitudes. Where do you draw the line? If the dog won't work purley with possitive training, put them down?? What should be done with the really strong dogs, no training, no titling, no breeding, no more Strong GSD????? Think about it.. We all love the hard character, courage and high drives. So we are now only to breed softer less driven less everyting GSD??? See my point or distort it to make yours!!!!! Best Regards, Dennis Johnson www.johnsonhaus.com

You can't hide much longer chuck. James Nelson

wscott00, sorry this thing has gotten so far out of whack. I really believe that we are not so much on different pages as comunication problems and a few sharp words and defenses go up and as people (men esp.) we are ready to defend our position to the matt. When I stated " for the best interest of the dog " I in no way meant to allow a dog to " do as he wants ". This is in no way in the best interest of the dogs. Any more then I allowed my children to run around and do as they pleased.As hundguy said, too many variables to say what is needed in every situation, this is why I always stress, Know your dog. I have also said that I will not judge any one for what they do, just check your motives. What wscott00 is saying is that he learns from his mistakes.This is what it's all about.Who came into this thing with all the knowledge and expertise? I wish I could say that I have learned from mistakes early on. I usually have to make a mistake at least twice to make sure I made it the first time. Duh. To be really honest, I would hate to admit the really stupid things I have done, then boasted how I showed him, only to realize I may have done damage that could not be corrected. That's why I do my best to check motives and why am I doing what I am doing. No one that has posted on this is out to lunch. Every post has had some insight that brings it all together. Just sift through the hard feelings and it will all come together.

Olskool, You have a lot of wisdom with your posts(as do many others), sometimes passion, ability, and motive, can manifest themselves into different levels. I have seen very few cases of abuse take place in public training. I have seen many opinionated people make assessments of abuse and I didn't agree with their opinion but that didn't make it abuse. If a person sees abuse and doesn't step to the person than shame on them. But when I see some top of the line trainers use strong methods on dogs that they know will handle and benefit from the method I don't consider that abuse. Yet you see people go into their cliches and whisper about what they saw. It really bothers me when uninformed people make assessments based just on what they see. Finally, I also have problems with people who treat dogs like humans because they impose the belief that they should be treated the same. Animals and people see things out of different windows and we need to learn their motivations and drives to make them happy, not necessarily OURS! You have the Air Force and the Marines, if you were an Air Force spouse and you saw some of the things marines are subjected to you may feel that it is abuse. But you don't have the point of reference to make that judgement!!! And their are sound reasons based on history, expertise, experience, and mission that justify that type of extreme in their training. So, A showline method of sch training is not going to always work with hard workinglines, their are other alternatives to use without them being abusive! But here is the catch, if you use that method on the showline dog it will shut down. So that owner is critical of that method. Hey you folks, different strokes for different dogs and they all have merit. That's not condoning abuse, its saying that your perspective on training dogs isn't the ONLY or CORRECT one that exists.

Olskool, the complimentary part of my pst was directed to you, the rest of the post is spoken in general about people in general. I love you perspective.

Gustav you need to post more, you are very correct.