When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 4

ProudShepherdPoppa, Good post...there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. I do tend to agree with the fact that there is a huge difference in what is being interpreted on this post. I for one do not use harsh corrections to make a dog do obedience or to make him bite. I will use them to control him in obedience and in is his bite work. I guess what I am trying to say is I never use these methods to force a begining, just to control what the dog has already started. I hope I am coming across the way I intend too. Shawn

The schutzhund club I belong to uses motivational methods, and there are regional and national qualifiers in this club. Some of the dogs (of various breeds) are very tough customers, but they are trainable. Dogs that prove to be dangerous are banned. Wscott00 and 4pack , I suspect you mean the motivational training methods appropriated in various forms by well-meaning but silly folks (usually with companion breeds)who have never had a high energy dog from a real working line?

Blitzen, you could a very write a very fine MA thesis statement, or PHD disertation proposal out of your thoughtful questions. And I mean that in a positive way, (no pun intended). Roboman, you posed a very good question atthe beginning of this thread. It's good to engage in civilized debate and discussion to keep us all thinking. Let's see if we can keep it that way. So far so good...

LOL....... thanks, Saxtonhill. I tend to get carried away sometimes and think about dogs way too often that I probably should. It's a curse.

Here We Go This Should be Fun!!!!! It is like talking to a bunch of attorney's on here twisting words slandering etc. Lets Try Some Open Mindness now. This isnt killing a dog and abusing them. These are all in the extreme with extreme dogs. a lot of you are show line people so i know it is hard for you to understand, but there are such things as tough dogs. not Vicious But Tough Especially if you are a trainer and you were not the one to raise these dogs and imprint them. But Then Again Most Of You Are Handlers not trainers. Just because a dog challenges you Doesn't make them a bad dog. a lot has to do with over confidence or even being trained to do so. For instance if you grab my service dogs leash and went to walk him with me there and telling him it is okay hell walk. if i leave the room or if i put him on command the correction you might give him to come and heel with you might probably put you in the hospital. It Doesnt make him a bad dog its a dog with a job to serve and protect me. Now say i sell you this dog and you pick him up at the airport you open the crate and he grabs your chest. Do you choke him off you to out ???? You Tell Me i Have only been training with the government and local entities for 15 years with a super high K9 promotion rate to service k9. These are all methods once you get to an escalated situation after all other means have been exhausted different training for different dogs. Each dog is an individual so they should be trained that way some you can give a loud verbal correction to and they submitt some dogs are mentally put together and can and will challenge the pack. Animal Psyc. 101 ,102, 103

I have working lines and yes I have seen hard dog's, but I also have learned to work around their hardness. I do agree here that there is a difference of giving a correction and flat out abuse. My male that I have now challenged me at one point, and I did give him about 3 hard corrections on the pinch, but I didn't hang him or punch him in the nose to let him know that I am in charge not him, and I'm proud to say he hasn't challenged me again(so far). It is one thing to give a correction, but it is something totally different when you hit,kick,punch,choke, and starve a dog, just to tell that dog who is in charge. There are way's to work around every dog. Like Haus Simpkins stated every dog is different, therefore the training should be modified to fit that dog, but not to the point where you do what I mentioned above. If Ceasar can do it and succeed, then everyone can do it. JM2C

I normally would only withhold food for a day or so if I'm trying to build bond with an older dog who wants nothing to do with me. Otherwise...just no breakfast before track, if dog doesn't want to track, I'm doing something wrong or I have the wrong dog! I have a hard dog who does not look hard because I've stopped (or tried to stop) doing the things that make him fight me. I use compulsion and corrections, but do not use these as a basis for learning; the dog has to understand everything first, which is done "motivationally". I know if he was raised being choked and dragged around he will look much tougher than the smiling, rubbing-against me dog who tries to listen to what I have to say.

I never saw that beating a dog or starving one could "teach" a dog anything. Occasionally, and only very rarely, it is necessary to choke a dog that challenges the handler. This is for the safety of the handler, and they have a right to protect themselves. It is also for the dog's own good. A dangerous, uncontrollable dog cannot be tolerated. I have seen people use choking / hanging as an obedience correction, and this is abominable. Dogs are chow-hounds anyway and seldom refuse a treat. I can't see where it would be any better to starve them so that they want food more.

i DONT KNOW wHO SIAD BEATEN A DOG THERE ARE KNOW BLOWS THROWN DURING MY TRAINING BUT IF A DOG IS CONTIUOSLY BEING AGGRESSIVE OUT OF CHALLENGING I DEFINATELY BELIEVE IN DRYING THEM OUT AND IF THERE IS NO SHOW OF BONDING OR IF THE DOG IS DOWN RIGHT ATTACKING HANDLER/ OWNER I WOULD DEFINATLY PROCEED TO CHOKE THEM OUT... OR I GUESS YOU WOULD JUST RATHER PUT THEM DOWN INSTEAD OF TRULY WORKING THREW THESE ISSUE ESPECIALLY AMONG DUTCH SHEPHERDS AND MALINOIS THIS IS MORE COMMON

I have used the "helocopter" thing on a couple of dogs in the past and would do it again if necessary, but ONLY for self preservation and never as a training method. I would never starve, choke or beat a dog to "train" it that I am its master. That is sick. I was taught those methods by "American K9" when I worked for them back in 1981, but I did not agree with it then nor do I now. It can be a shortcut to use on some dogs but I could not in good conscience use it. There are other ways. They also taught me use electric shock to "poison proof" dogs. That sucks also. I don't even like the shock collars so popular now-a-days by many on the site. To each his own, I guess. But not for me. There HAS TO BE a better way to accomplish what you want. I guess I will be called a "woose" by some here, but I am not. I always volunteer to be the "helper" when it is a really tough dog, when others will not. I just don't like to do what does not have to be done, if it is "hurting" a unnecessarily. Some hurt is sometimes necessary (like spanking your kids butt when he throws a fork at you, or some other suck nonsense), but there is a "line" that should not be crossed. Everybody has that line at a different location I guess. Mine just happens to be close to my conscience :) Those (like Haus above) think that the "ends justifies the means". I respectfully disagree. Yes, it works. But at what cost (to the dog). Reminds me of those parents that hurt or kill their kids cheerleading competitors" to get their kid the position. Not a real good comparison but it gets the point across.