When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 5

ITS NOT STARVING ITS ASSERTING PACK AND IF YOU EVER HAVE READ A BOOK ABOUT FERAL DOGS THEY GO ALOT LONGER THEN THREE DAYS WITH OUT FOOD IN THE WILD MOST DOGS BREAK AFTER 2 DAYS AND THEY LOOK AT YOU LIKE YOU MADE THE KILL YOU ATE FIRST NO YOU ARE GIVING THE REST TO ME YOU ARE THE LEADER OF THE PACK AND YOU ARE ACCEPTING ME INTO YOUR PACK THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING IF YOU KEEP THEM HYDRATED AND WITH VITAMINS THEY GO ON FOR A LONG TIME WITH NO PHYSICAL FOODS AS LONG AS THERE IS SUPPLEMENTATION LIKE VITAMINS AND PROBIOTICS IN THERE WATER ETC. AND AT THE SAME TIME I NEVER RECALL BEATING A DOG OR PUNISHING THE,M WITH A CRACK TO THE MUZZLE WITH A BROOM HANDLE SO I THINK A LOT OF MY WAYS ARE MORE HUMANE AND I AM NOT CHALLING VIOLENCE FROM A DOG WITH VIOLENCE. CHOKING OUT LIKE A HANG TIME CHOKE IS STILL FELT FROM THE LEASH FROM THE DOG THE CORRECTION IS NOT COMING FROM ME SO NO MIXED SIGNALS ARE BEING TOUTED BY THE DOG!!!~~~!

saxton so you are saying these folks never correct a dog? I believe that motivation is hands down the best way to teach a dog. but you must use some form of correction once the dogs knows an excerise but does not do it. i agree that a dog can me trained 100% motivationally and qualify for a national event, but it only takes a 270. and we all know that a 270 at a club trial is only worth about 255 points a national event. id be intersted in seeing how many national competitors have never used a correction. (and by competitor i mean top 10, not someone who quaifies and score a 260) My goal is to be competitve at the national level, not just qualify and show up. Ive shown at a few national events, but have never been competitive. So, while qualifying for a national even is an accomplishment, my goals are a bit higher. and i dont believe you can train a dog w/ out ever giving correction, and consistantly "V" at a national level. the 1st 93 points are the easy part. its the next 3 points that you'll spend all your time on. and IMO there is no way you can do it w. out correction. now having said that there are so many differnt levels of corrections, from barely noticeable to cruel and unusual. and what seems harsh to you may seem ok by me. 80% is relative. If you show me someone who has never corrected their dog, ill show you someone who will never consistantly "V". to say you should never correct your dog is just as rediculous as saying never reward your dog and only use cumpulsion.

"You guys can talk all the goodie goodie you want until you have a dog that requires this hardeness, because they are that hard." Hard, or crazy? Not everyone can tell the difference, and not everyone can tell what methods are appropriate and if they are even working. If you have to go to extremes with a dog, would that dog be useful in society? Schutzhund originally was a test of a useful breed. Now it seems to be an end unto itself in many cases.

I have been there and seen it. New people to our club now have the advantage that some of us have gone there and it doesn't/does WORK. We tell the newbies to go or not depending on the situation. It is something to see the new handlers go further faster than the old hands with enthusiasim using appropriate consequenses for the dogs actions. I think that is how a club should be measured. Extreme methods should be used for extreme problems that are of a control nature. Namely that the dog better control himself after we have trained him and given him the responsibility back to carry out the task. A good dog having learned any phase can at some point try to do it his way. If he decides to defend his right to do it his way then, sorry, but the book of hard knocks gets opened.---Bob

I have seen corrections and I have seen extreme. Some of the corrections I have seen others may consider extreme where I do not. I have no problem with corrections. The extremes I've seen leave no doubt. I have known and heard of a very few dogs where the extremes are actually needed. Personally if I had a dog like that it would be on a one way visit to the vet.

barbken: just wanted to say that you pretty much hit the nail on the head. It is old training methods still being used. Again, yes it works, but at what cost. You can put your childs hand in fire to show him that fire hurts and is dangerous or you can explain it to him. My father could have taken me to a prostitute to teach me the "birds and the bees" or he could have talked to me about it. I am glad he talked to me about it :) As an aside, I still have the drawings that he hand scribbled as illustrations way back then, when we had that "discussion". You talk about funny ;-) LaPorte has it right also: "If you have to go to extremes with a dog, would that dog be useful in society? Schutzhund originally was a test of a useful breed. Now it seems to be an end unto itself in many cases."

The more I see of people the more I enjoy my dogs. Why do thinking folks try to reason with "DUH!". There is a perspective about method I suppose---- not always clear thinking. Someone stated something like a "guy told me once" and that is HIS mentality. Leave him alone and pray for his dog. K9 Officer to Chief," My dog can track today if you need him because he didn't eat yesterday", RIIIIGHT!! Makes sense to me? One person mentions string a dog up by his collar to get his attention and someone else refers to marks on rear legs? Did I mention my oranges look similar but different from my apples and while the taste is not quite the same either, some cost less if they are on sale or I can't handle it, PLEEEASE--- don't let the neighbor know the danger he lives with---- and I am NOT necessarily referring to any dog! Yes, this could be called "contributing to the demise of the German Shepherd Dog" as a breed. I am so sorry for some folks. Years ago I remember "old timers" talk about beating a "dead horse"??? Morgan

I would love to think I would be above this type of hard corrections in one of my dogs. However, after living with physco dog, if someone would have suggested it to me at the time and given me the security that they knew what they were doing and goal in mind. I really think I would have done it. I would be against it if being used to shorten the training time. I understand there are some dogs out there that are that hard, what I have a problem with, is when they get in the wrong hands,even in the right hands, accidents happen and those are not good for the breed overall.

wscott, what titles have you put on your dog?

roborob, I think you have done me a favor. For some time now I've been struggling with whether I want to continue being a part of today's world of sport dogs and all the things I see going on in the periphery. The unbelievable comments that your post has elicited has convinced me that the quality of people involved in this has deteriorated so much that was once seen as outrageous is viewed today by many as the norm. Another sign of our sick world. As a result I bid adieux to all. To the good people I say keep fighting the good fight, but I for one have had it. My bookmark will be immediately erased after this post and my account hopefully closed shortly afterwards, If I can figure out how to do that. Be well!