When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 6

I agree that motivational training is the best, top of the list, for training methods. But I too have a stubborn and "hard" male dog. He is self-confident, large (I am a small woman) and full of himself near other male dogs so that he would "get into it" if he felt the slightest opportunity. This has only been overcome by strict obedience. He has had to learn that in no uncertain terms, he must pay attention to me and listen to me and do what I say. This has not been at all easy. However, I agree with others that hitting, punching, kicking, choking and starving are abuse and have no place at all in dog training. I have used strict obedience with a pinch to overcome his dominance both with me and other dogs but have never had to resort to abuse. Fortunately I have had a top trainer and world competitor to help with this. Timing is everything. The correction has to be lightening swift and completely adequate as does the REWARD. Before training this type of dog, I did not understand at all how incredibly important and exacting timing must be. And how quickly and appropriately the correction must be delivered and how effusively and quickly the reward MUST BE GIVEN. This type of dog will never forgive abuse and other less self confident dogs will have their spirit broken by abusive methods. My boy is the best dog I hav ever owned and I have had many GSDs.

Just one more thing. A self-confident and hard dog learns to respect his trainer/handler through fairness, never through abuse. The best dogs are not always the easiest to train.

OldNewGuyMC: Don't know if you will ever read this, but it doesn't matter if you agree with me or agree with someone with an opposing view, you should not dismiss the world of sport dogs if that is what you want to do. I remember a basketball player (have ya'll noticed how many times I reference basketball? I think I have an addiction, but I digress), named Keith Smart. He was a phenom in high school basketball and went to Indiana to play for Bobby Knight. Mr. Knight thought that Keith did not have correct form in his shooting style and forced him to modify his shooting form to the "accepted" way of shooting. Well, it ruined Keith's shot. He bacame less than the great player he could have been. My point is, do it YOUR way, and maybe, just maybe, you will score higher than all or many of the ones who "tell us all how it should be done", here and on the field. I myself do not participate in sport dogs, but I enjoy watching them perform and try to learn from those that do. There is more than one way to skin a cat, or as DH has on his "about" page on his web site "there is more than one path to the top of the mountain". I really just want you to stay around because I like your name, "OldNewGuy". It reminds me that even an old dog can learn new tricks :)

OK, here's the part that will get me flamed, but I have been there and had to make the hard decisions. Why would anyone choose to continue to live with a psycho dog or a dog that puts his neighbours in danger? Just a question. I have had to deal with and live with the responsible answer.

Okay, I am snow bound today so I am "talking" too much. But I do have one more thing to say on this thread. I am glad that we do not agree on this site. Any subject (and I do mean ANY), will get opposing views. I like that. That is how we grow and how we learn. That is how we formulate our opinions on this and that. Even if it is a discussion about frick'en fireworks, there will be arguments. I do not like the personal and vicious attacks that often appear here, but it rolls off like water on a ducks butt if you let it. Instead, look at it knowledge we get from hearing opposing views. Our Congress here in the U.S. would not work if "they" did not bicker all of the time. And wouldn't it be a dull world if we all agreed on everything. I am sure of one thing, this web site would not be visited everyday by "us" if we all agreed on most things. I even think ole scott10 and brief, harsh uncle Funk make a good point now and then. Maybe as often as I do (nah, now I'm getting silly:), but enjoy the diversity. Who wants to watch only good movies. You have to see a bad one now and then to appreciate the good ones. You have to eat spinach now and then to appreciate chocolate. And, you have to read writings from "those guys" (you know who you are:), to appreciate the writings of "those other guys and gals" (you know who you are also;) As a final note concerning this thread, I will note that in the natural world of canines, the pack leaders do use force and pain to make their desires understood, and we in our training and ownership, strive to be known as the pack leaders. So, I will not totally dismiss the notion that "those guys" are wrong. It's just not for me. I would rather fail in my training. I can live with that but I could not live with using "those" methods. Sort of like an intentional hard foul in a basketball game (oops, there I go again) to take out an opponents best player. Some will do it, but I would rather lose the "game" :-)

ONG-- Just logged on. What the he/l. GSD people aren't quitters. They may be idiots, but not quitters. You get back here, right now. That will mean one less for our side---the GSD's, that is. I hope you realize how many around here will really miss your presence.

LMH said: "ONG-- Just logged on. What the he/l. GSD people aren't quitters. They may be idiots, but not quitters. You get back here, right now. That will mean one less for our side---the GSD's, that is. I hope you realize how many around here will really miss your presence." You tell him LMH. please.

to answer the original question, it started when too many people saw to many dogs (typically showline) that were too soft for the work. so we breed to the oposite extreme and create the working line dog. then our macho attidued kicks in. bigger stronger nastery is better. so we get dogs that are very independent. we find ways to show them who is boss. right or wrong it still comes down to the sayins "the only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is what the 3rd one is doing wrong" john

"You tell him LMH.please" animules-- I thought I already did, but here goes. I'm sure to some he'd be missed just as much as you would--and that's saying something. Now tell me, animules.please--Does that meet with your approval?

LMH, I hope ONG listens to you. And thank you very much, yes.