When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 8

4-pack, good to see your post. Keep them coming! Haus, not sure we are all on the same page as to what is appropriate. It it saves the dogs life, if it corrects the behavior, if it does no perminant damage to the dog, if it is what is needed for a particular dog with much hardness, sharpness, too much domination or disrespect and meets the above criteria, then do what you have to do. Above all though, KNOW YOUR DOG, KNOW THE DOG YOU ARE WORKING WITH, KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO DO THE FIRST

TIME, so your don't just condition your dog to be more resistive and eventually take any thing you can throw at him. You can't throw basic training methods into a bag and lable them FOR ALL DOGS. We must first KNOW OUR DOG AND WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIS ATTENTION. I will not take the time to enter this debate about what is cruel except to say you can't say Fido responds to this so all dogs will. Some harsh methods are necessary under some situations with some types of dogs. AKC says " no pronged callers", Louisville says no chock chains. So what's abusive????? True abuse is allowing strong willed Fido to be the king of the universe and do as he pleases until someone is seriously hurt,That's abuse cause then he gets to go to doggy heaven before his time.

P.S. I do not use the above mentioned treatments, but I am not going to condem someone who may need to with hold food or some other harsh treatment. If a dog bites my wife, he is going to find air between him and the ground. This is not macho, cruel or inhumane. It's called, " you will think twice about doing that again, and ", know that you have broken a cardinal sin in our house and it will not ever be tolerated again. If that's cruel then so be it. If that makes me an a.. then so be it. But Fido will learn that we are a family and he will not be the thug. There are times when a male gets to thinking he is the boss when dad is away or out of sight. Oh well, said enough. Maybe too much.

I'm pretty sure I don't even want to dignify this thread with a post but here goes. The dogs that I have titled using positive motivation have achieved much higher scores than the ones I yanked all over the field with the pinch and the e-collar. Unfortunately Ender died before I could prove that positive motivation works at the National Level. He did manage to score 100 in tracking , 100 in obedience, and 97 in protection. If you require starving, beating and choking to train the dog for the sport, well than maybe that dog is not best for the sport and maybe you'd better find something else he or she is good for, like passing on those handler hard genes to other pet homes. (that is a joke) I have seen it all guys, and we are supposed to be civilized and if you still need to choke out the dog for the out, then in my opinion, you might want to consider something different for the dog. Either the drives were not taught right to begine with and it's a lost cause or the dog's temperament is not "clear." Give it up, have some respect for the dog, and be humane.

starving, beating or choking of any dog or animal in the United states of America is a ILLEGAL regards to any of you guys opinions about this cruel and harsh training method... It's not only ILLEGAL but in most states, according to the the situation is a FELONY. Go to State animal cruelty laws - http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/state_cruelty_chart.pdf to find out more information of the summary. If anybody sees such method....I suggest contacting the police department and to get this so called “trainer” throw in jail where he belongs.

Unfortunately, I've seen this type of "training" from a person here in Ohio. I'm sure it's everywhere, but this woman, I have first hand knowledge of. I even have her on tape (her husband rather), admitting to having to train a dog with dog aggression using "negitive reinforcement"!!! You best best when dealing with people who think this way is...RUN...RUN LIKE HELL!!!! Contact your local police departments, dog wardens, humane societies....and tell anyone who will listen. The only way to stop these people is to put them out of business!!!

OK, i need to take a step back and find out what do you guys consider beating, choking or starving. at what point is it choking vs a corection on a choke chain. when does putting a dogs food on the trakc become starving? it seems like we are discussing a very very subjective topic and every one is only considering the extreme cases. in the grand scheme of things ive accomplished absolutly nothing in sch. but i do know that when using an e-collar there are times when you may have to turn it up and there are times when you have so low it just makes the dogs eyes blink. there are times when a slight tug on a pinch collar hill do, and there are times when a harsh correction is needed. Like it or not, in schutzhund people will correct their dogs, and if you are very sinsetive to this you'll most likely consider it beating, choking, or starving. on another note, there are a lot of good trainers and clubs out there that use corrections and are fair to a dog. These folks use motivation to teach the dog, let the dog figure out what is corect. reward correct behaviour and when needed punish dis-obedience. these types of clubs are very knowledgable an experience, they also dont take kindly to strangers because of this vey topic. what seems ok by me you may see as cruelty.

Excellent point wscott00. Choking out till the dog has no air? Extreme. Correction with the pinch when the dog is disobeying? Fine. (of course, we can have a nice long discussion about exactly when the dog is choosing to disobey and when it hasn't been proofed and trained enough.) e collar for the out on a collar wise dog when you have taught correct drive control and the dog just doesn't want to give up the fight? Fine Ecollar to train the dog to sit in the first place? Extreme. We've got better methods now, use them. Withholding breakfast or even a day to get better focus on the track? Fine Starving your dog till they lose weight? Extreme. If your dog has no prey drive, no food drive, and you think you need to use corrections entirely to train, well than maybe that dog shouldn't be doing Schutzhund,since if it is a GSD, it doesn't have the correct drives in the first place. And we certainly don't want it passing down the no food drive, and no prey drive to it's offspring.

Thank you wscott00 and Changer! You have stated exactly how I feel and I think have clarified for many here.

wscott00, that is a good idea and some great points.... Changer, I think that is what this post needed to help clear up some of the confusion. I think we all knew what we were thinking we just never put it into words. I think your examples are right to the point....and excersise a great deal of common sense also! Dogs are a lot like children, we try to be positive and enforce the good, but sometimes you need the fear of god or to even "put a foot in their ass!" (just an expression, dont get excited). But that is never the first option, sometimes it is the last option. Shawn