breed worthiness? - Page 3

Blitzen... I think Kevin and I posted at the same time. Coincidentally, we were talking about the same thing, from opposite ends! LOL 

Not trying stir anything, but its show. Why would anything but producing wining dogs that are healthy be important? Im probably really really going to regret pushing submit.  (Like thats ever stopped me before)

Goal Wining Show Title's = Producing what judges like for the moment. Honest post not stiring.

I'd appreciate it if  you'd start another thread if you want to get into lines other than showlines, Gigante, but it's up to you. It's hard for showline people to discuss much on this database without being reminded of all the things they are doing wrong. If you have showlines and want to talk about how you determine their breed worthiness, that would be good. I think a separate thread asking the same question of workingline breeders might be interesting too.

For Blitzen: Some breeders use the female at an early age, so the female might be IPO1 only at that time, 2 and 3 following later, but a lot of breeders are not interested in titling, they do what they have to do, not more, not less. The IPO1 in itself doesn´t say much about the real working abilities of the dog in question - some are great and the breeder simply didn´t care, some are weak and the breeder is glad he achieved at least IPO1 with the dog. And even the interpretion of "working ability" is different from breeder to breeder...
That´s the main reason why I want to see the parents of my pup during training, IPO1 and breed survey is the very least, everything else is in the eye of the beholder, but a dog that didn´t AT LEAST achieve a IPO1/breed survey is not breedworhy in my opinion.

"Showline breeder" doesn´t automatically implement "flavor of the day breeder". A lot of breeders over here try to breed according to the standard, they don´t win, they don´t own VA dogs, but they breed GOOD dogs. People outside of Germany always only look at the "winners", the dogs with the trophies - all of you are adult, you don´t need to breed to the "flavor of the day", and you don´t need to buy them...

It´s "supply and demand", but as long as there is enough demand, breeders will breed whatever buyers will buy...

Blitzen, Im just really curious, I have several people who have done well in AKC competion waiting on the right dogs from me to go show. I dont get it but they believe its worth it. To me my dogs are not even to todays standered as I see whats winning in sport.

susie, thanks for your explantion I guess its just the fighter in me. Step in the ring and I want to win the whole enchllada not just show I can at least arrive. If I was Showline I would breed to win, right after health. If anyone cares to take this offline and help me understand this, please free to pm. Was am not trying to derail your thread Blitzen.

JD

Gigante, this kind of thinking ( Step in the ring and I want to win ) is the main reason for all the problems we have.
The German Shepherd wasn´t created to be the winner in every venue, but to be able to do almost everything.
As soon as breeders start to concentrate on one trait only, be it sport, police work, or show, they start to ignore a lot of important traits - breeding for ONE trait only ends in the loss of other traits, and this ends in the loss of working abilities or the standard.

I, personally, love the idea of the "Universal German Shepherd" - I´m not looking for a winner in ONE venue, but for the winner in the summary of ALL venues, does this make sense?

Gigante, how do you determine which of your dogs are breed worthy?

I agree, Susie, I prefer a dog that is not just a one trick pony myself. However, which venues would prove a showline GSD's breed worthiness? Only the SV criteria, or are there others?

I still believe in the SV system ( tracking, obedience, bitework ), in my opinion no proof of breed worthiness without bitework, followed by proof of standard.

Tracking: A lot of concentration, followed by obedience is demanded from the dog
Obedience: Just what is says, the dog needs to show the willingness to please, followed by intelligence, and concentration, too
Bitework: Old fashioned said "Hardness, courage, fightingdrive"

But, that said, I don´t believe in titles "only". The process of training is the most important part, for the breeder and for the people able to watch the dog during training. Almost all people who didn´t train their own dogs will never know about the advantages and disadventages of their own breeding stock.
AFTERWARDS they may decide for themselves if their dog is "breedworthy" or not.

susie 
Please elaborate on doing something better then most, equals ruin for all. Im not familiar with this philosophy.  That might be a grand prize, silly winner.  But I will hear you out :)~

Tracking, obedience & bite work, proves a sport dog, has no relevance with looking great and being shown, so how does that make a show line breed able? It does add value to an animal but how does it benefit being best in class. I have ZeRo show line experience are those title's required?? I don't know.

Explain "Universal German Shepherd" If I breed for seeing eye dog, does tracking and bite work proof my dog making them a viable breeding option, breed able for the blind, now. Thats straight goofy to me. If someone wants a man killer Im not starting with a show line or a sport dog. I don't think most police or military agencies are going to like your program one size fits all. But I'm open to hearing this philosophy.