I do the 7 gen. non-interactive pedigree, as my computer screen has trouble with the interactive ped.

**GSD Lineage "With a name like whiteshepherds, let me guess what you call them.  All white shepherds so far I've looked at trace to GSD :)"**

All three of my dogs are registered as AKC GSD's and I've had whites for just about 20 years. I use whiteshepherds as an ID because "Youcantknowthetemperamentofadogbylookingatapicture" had too many characters. ;)  

Yes, they all go back to the GSD..nothing new there.

Are they the same? How different should they be to be considered a different breed?  Honestly, I don't know.  All I know is the FCI does consider them to be a different breed and I have yet to meet a BBS breeder who wants their dogs reintegrated into the GSD gene pool. BBS aren't subject to a working trial in the FCI, GSD's are. If the BBS breeders were simply trying to make a white GSD breed, they would have asked that a working trail be mandatory...they didn't. The BBS are required to pass a breed inspection, temperament test and certain health tests but no working trial.

I'm posting the FCI circular for the BBS below...it explains what can and can't be registered as a BBS. The FCI standing orders state that all registries have an appendix  and although some GSD's have gotten into the breed in the recent past by way of an appendix, the circular is supposed to take precedence in the BBS breed.

White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, 347)
As the responsible country for the breed standard White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347), the SKG informs us of their concern regarding the current situation as far as the breeding of this breed and the issuing of pedigrees by some FCI member countries are concerned. We share their concern and observe that even after the recognition of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347) on 01.01.2003 (date of the official recognition), matings with non-purebred subjects (3 generations) from this breed continue to take place or that white German Shepherd Dogs with one or more coloured ancestor(s) are re-registered as WSSD.
We remind all FCI member organisations and contract partners that they have to comply with the following :
1. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (347) CANNOT be mated with white German Shepherd Dogs (GSD, standard 166) since they are two distinct breeds with different breed standards. In order to guarantee that both breeds are correctly separated, it is also important to respect what follows :
2. WSSD cannot be entered in the studbooks of this very breed if a part or all their ancestors (3 generations) were still registered, after 01.01.2003, as white German Shepherd Dogs.
3. It is not allowed to re-register as a WSSD (347) a dog which was registered as a white German Shepherd Dog (166) after 01.01.2003.
4. An accidental white German Shepherd Dogs (white puppy in a litter of German Shepherd Dogs) with one or more coloured ancestor(s) cannot be used for breeding as a WSSD nor can it be re-registered as a WSSD.

The politics in the text above is so rampant and it is so poorly written. Thanks for posting it though.

Ouch! 

Call it what you want, the facts aren't going to change. There's no working trial for the BBS. The FCI and AKC don't have a reciprocal agreement for the BBS/GSD, it's a one way street.  The second half of the post was a direct quote from the FCI.

 

I am talking about the second part...
White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, 347)
As the responsible country for the breed standard White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347), the SKG informs us of their concern regarding the current situation as far as the breeding of this breed and the issuing of pedigrees by some FCI member countries are concerned. We share their concern and observe that even after the recognition of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347) on 01.01.2003 (date of the official recognition), matings with non-purebred subjects (White GSDs are Purebred) (3 generations) from this breed continue to take place or that white German Shepherd Dogs with one or more coloured ancestor(s) (All White German Shepherds have colored ancestors and all Colored GSDs have at least one White ancestor (Greif von Sparwasser) are re-registered as WSSD. (Where can you register a US born White Swiss anyhow? White Shepherd in UKC, yes?) 

We remind all FCI member organisations and contract partners that they have to comply with the following :
1. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (347) CANNOT be mated with white German Shepherd Dogs (GSD, standard 166) since they are two distinct breeds with different breed standards. In order to guarantee that both breeds are correctly separated, it is also important to respect what follows :

(Who wrote the manual on correct breed separation?)

4. An accidental white German Shepherd Dogs (white puppy in a litter of German Shepherd Dogs) with one or more coloured ancestor(s) cannot be used for breeding as a WSSD nor can it be re-registered as a WSSD.

(So, one born on purpose can be used for breeding?)

 Politics!

I lost that great video of the military white dog... 
There going to end up with 3 breed names for the same dog. 

 

-The Swiss set the standard for the BBS and are considered the parent club for that breed.

-That circular IS confusing. The GSD was used as the foundation stock for the BBS breed but if I understand the process correctly, the original GSD's used were not given BBS registrations. Those were only given to subsequent generations (usually 4-6 generations later) after certain requirements were met. The dogs might have had provisional registrations, I'm not really positive.
The circular was written after the Swiss stopped allowing dogs with GSD's in their 3 gen. pedigrees to enter the BBS studbook. It was a warning that was sent out once in 2007 and again in 2013 because some FCI registries were still allowing GSD's into the BBS appendix although the practice was supposed to have stopped in 2003. Today the BBS parent club says a BBS whether it's bred to an AKC GSD or a UKC White Shepherd, produces mutts.

-A pure FCI BBS/BBS litter born in the US can be registered with the FCPR as BBS. (FCI registry for North America) They can also be registered as White Shepherds in the UKC and as GSD's in the AKC.

-The FCI dictates what steps have to be taken to start any new breed per their standing orders. Part of those standing orders:
"A new breed can be recognized as such when it meets the definition of a breed (see FCI regulations concerning breeding within and between varieties). The population must consist of a minimum of 8 bloodlines, each with at least 2 dogs and 6 bitches (nuclear herd) from one line to another, there should be no animal in common throughout three generations. These conditions can be met when, with an excellent planned breeding program, a minimum of 1.000 (thousand) dogs are registered.

The application must comprise a DVD showing many subjects standing and moving, pictures and a written proof that the requirements previously set by the General Assembly in Madrid for the recognition of new breeds (8 independent bloodlines, number of dogs, control of the hip dysplasia, PRA, epilepsy, evolution of the behavior and character) are fulfilled. A provisional standard drawn up in one of the four official languages of the FCI (French, German, English, Spanish) according to the model adopted by the General Assembly in Jerusalem and a drawing of the dog for the first page of the standard must be included in the file.

After a minimum of 5 generations and at the soonest 10 years after the provisional recognition, the applying country can submit a request for the definitive recognition of the breed." The complete FCI standing orders are on the FCI website.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/white_shepherd/dog.html?id=1767674-einstein-tyson-vom-sutumer-grund

VA Einstein Tyson vom Sutumer Grund 

BH , SCHH 1-3

Sire Born : 24. April 1995

 

Who awarded the title VA to this dog and where are the records of BH , ScHH?  VA by whose judges?

I notice it is named a WHITE SHEPHERD so it would be under   seperate class? right?

 

YR

 

No SV title...  The German kennel "vom Sutumer Grund" seems to care about working abilities in some of their dogs, worth a look if you are interested.

I have translated the tribute page written for this dog by his owner:  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.sutumer-grund.de/1rueden-eini.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEinstein%2BTyson%2Bvom%2BSutumer%2BGrund

His achievements are indeed outstanding. He scored A: 97 B: 96 C: 98 points on his IPO 3!

Apparently there IS an organization that will allow these dogs to compete in an SV style shows. It's an FCI organization called the VDH. The certificate on the page I've linked above says "this dog has completed the required working trials and is entitled to be registered in the working class in all FCI exhibitions."  The VDH  (Verband für das Deutsche Hundewesen) is the German equivalent of the AKC, and would include the SV as well as all other breed clubs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verband_f%C3%BCr_das_Deutsche_Hundewesen

The page also shows some of his offspring as having show ratings (V1, VPG2, etc.) as well.

I'ts definitely NOT the SV issuing these ratings or conducting the IPO trials, though, it's being done under the FCI.

Re. the 'politics'...

Being familiar with the history of the Shiloh Shepherd, I probably have a better grasp of what's going on here than most of you. We all know the GSD in the States began to change when Lance of Fran-Jo became the most popular sire of all time. Tina Barber, the breed founder of the Shilohs did NOT like what she was seeing. She continued to breed her own line of GSDs to the old standard. She had dogs that could still work in SAR and schutzhund, and were not overangulated*. As the years went by, it became harder and harder to find dogs outside her own kennel that had what she wanted. She had to search further and further afield to find GSDs that met her requirements. Time and again, she brought in new bloodlines only to have more and more problems surface (epi, hip dysplasia, lethal heart problems, etc.)

She decided the answer was to separate her gene pool from the GSD. She outcrossed to a dog that was part giant malemute, part GSD, and started the Shiloh shepherd breed.

That's when the fun started. In order to maintain breed purity, the FCI [or any other registry, for that matter] has very strict rules. You CANNOT keep back-crossing your dogs to dogs outside your registry. This is allowed for a certain period of time, until you get enough dogs in your gene pool to avoid a genetic bottle-neck. However, numerous people that broke with the original Shiloh breed club (the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry) have continued to do exactly that. It's one of the reasons the breed still hasn't been officialy recognized. At some point, to maintain breed purity, and establish breed type, you HAVE to draw a line and say the stud book is CLOSED!

I can see from the pictures that the American white shepherd looks just like the American show shepherds ...the two are identical, and white shepherds often pop up in American showline shepherd litters. The Berger Blanc Suisse, however, looks quite different. It resembles the old-style GSDs before the days of Lance. If the BBS continues to be bred to American GSDs, or other GSDs outside their registry,  they are going to lose that distinct breed type. So, it is NOT just a matter of politics!

(*The current Shiloh is a different dog. The temperaments have been 'toned down' to make them easier for the average person to handle. But let's not head down that rabbit trail right now...)