Thoughts on Limited Registration - Page 14

First I'd like to send Kudo's to BW, DenWolf, and a few others back a ways, that have applied some logical thinking to this "Catch22", and added examples and experiences for enlightenment of the readers. Way to get the point across, and nice going there breeders & mentors!
And read Beekers post again! Think about that!

Back to those "Screeners"; if screening your buyers is such a good prevention method for keeping pups out of "MILL" hands, why is it so hard for you to screen breeders that might, move, die, go bankrupt, disappear, got to jail, or just vaporize into thin air. I mean if your that good at screening people, you should be able to screen the breeders that are selling with limited registration and know which ones won't be there in four years when you get your CGC completed. Laughable!! Right! four years to get a CGC requirement to lift your limited. Anyone know, anyone, that worked four years to put a laugh-able CGC on a dog?

I still rest my case, and clearly you made yours for a lack of control and vocabulary. Incidentally; all you Full Registration only breeders, can you honestly tell this form group that you never sold an eight week old puppy with full registration that had some sort of genetic flaw?

Because I bought a high priced (Top of the Line Puppy) from a Big breeder, that died in Veterinary care at 6 months of age, from generalized tonic-clonic seizure! I bought another (same type story), pup and after two years, fully trained with a lot of time and money invested, stage four hip-dysplasia. Both parents were (a1 normal). OFA requires 2yrs. I have done PENN-HIPS early, and those times the hips were ok,
then at 2yrs I did OFA again. GETS expensive. Now how many full registration puppies, get Penn-Hips, or OFA before they are bred? So here we go with the extreme argument again. Those are bred, their pups are bred, their progeny are bred, and then one of those progeny are bred to your FULL Registration puppy, and it delivers Noch Zuglassen, and you don't know where it came from? So limited isn't so bad, especially if it requires, OFA, or PENN-HIPS before it's lifted!

Limited isn't so bad if it only requires the dog be 2 years old before it can be bred! Most hidden (not all - but most) flaws show up in the first two years. The AKC will use a well written contract to lift a limited if the breeder is dead, and they will work with owners that can prove they have met the contract agreements, so unless your afraid you can't meet the contract agreements, you shouldn't have a problem with limited. Besides, Limited also shows that the breeder CARES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS to their puppies and dogs. Full registration, JUST TAKE IT and GO, no obligation to the breeder to even be there later. LIMITED makes a breeder liable for the responsibility to be able to be contacted later, it is a string on the breeder more than the buyer.

Co-Owner can make a breeder seriously liable for damages beyond their control, and anyone doing that, should contact a very good lawyer to have their contract written well enough to stand up in any court in the World, because how do they know where the Owner might take the dog to, and end up with a child facial bite? I saw a 7 year old's face after a Great Dane bit him once, and it was not pretty, nor was the lawsuit that followed. How many Co-Owners are carrying that kind of insurance on their CO-OWNED dogs? So you see, there are a lot of things to consider, not just head strong, ignorant mind sets that only one way is your way. I END My CASE Here! Good Night. PTL!

In looking back, "Sagey" disagrees with "Beeker318" Sagey's argument is that all dogs are created equal and therefore should have the same rights and privileges of any-other dog; be it pure bred, AKC, SV, Working, Show, or Shelter Mutt! On the other hand, it appears that people should not have the right to own a dog or breed a dog if they want to, and some people should have those rights taken away. Has anybody heard of Genetics, chromosomes, DNA, Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, Jacobsen Syndrome, Angelman syndrome, Turner syndrome, 22q11.2 deletion syndrome, Williams Syndrome, Triple X Syndrome, Cri du Chat Syndrome, Trisomy 13/Patau syndrome, Trisomy 18/Edwards syndrome, Cat eye syndrome, Trisomy 16, Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease ( this disease is the most common inherited neurological disorder)? These are all Genetic based problems that make every living creature different, and not equal in ability and aptitude, or expected outcomes. So while we are so sure that it is the training and not the dog that is at fault, let us go back to 7th Grade Science class and look up the word Genetics and start all over again in our evaluations about shelter mutts. In my first post I mentioned Genetics, and DNA, in reference to how many possible out comes we could get from two dogs that have won
3 X VA World Champions mated for puppies. You can only hope you will get what your expecting, but there is no guarantee you will, because only GOD controls Genetics to the exponent degree !

Now I have a question about the SV: does every dog registered with the SV have a DNA verified profile recorded in it's records to prove that both of the parents on it's pedigree are in fact it's natural birth parents? And if the SV has this secrete record, (because I own SV registered dogs) how many markers are used in the DNA certification records. 50K, 80K, do they monitor parentage, color, ears, tails, legs, length, what do they monitor with these secrete DNA markers? I would really like an answer, because I would like to know. The AKC certainly does not monitor blood samples and DNA. The accuracy of the pedigree is entirely up to the breeder, and until someone goes to those two dogs, and gets a blood sample, and then takes samples of each puppy, there is no way to prove that the puppy you bought from that breeder is even from that litter. You have to take the breeders word for it. Now lets start screening our breeders again, because never mind the LIMITED REGISTRATION, is the breeder honest, high integrity, Christian, Believes in GOD and Country! Now that's the breeder I want to buy from, and if they want to limit me to make me wait two years to breed, I would be honored to buy that puppy, if I know all the rest of that about the breeder is true.

I surely hope I have generated some thinking and evaluating here!

38 years ago, I went to a breeders kennel that advertised AKC GSD for sale. There were at least 25 GSD in chicken wire kennels all over the place. There were also some Rotties, and Dobes, in Chicken wire kennels, and some running loose in the common ground in between.
I counted at least four pregnant females, and six litters of puppies in the kennel runs as we walked around his kennel. Then I noticed that several dogs were jumping through holes in the wire between kennel runs, and some of the fences were crushed like the dogs had jumped on and over them. So I pointed to a puppy and said: " I kind of like the looks of that one, can I see the pedigree and registration papers for the parents?" He went in the house, and came back out, 15 minutes later with three shoe boxes full and running over with what looked like someones office waste basket material. He frantically sorted through one shoe box and said: "well I might have to take some time to find the pedigree's, but you can buy the puppy today, and I will mail you the paper work later." I kindly told him that I would have to reconsider that litter, and come back later when he had his pedigrees sorted out. I never went back, but he had told me that most of his puppies were sold to pet shops, and as pets to home owners, and that he always sent the papers later.

Now I ask you: how well do you know that breeder that might die, move, go to jail, disappear, vaporize. Have they been living there for twenty years, thirty years, is it their parents homestead house, what about the next door neighbors, do they know that breeder? You better Screen your breeder and LIMIT your pedigree, that's what makes sense. See in Germany, (i lived there too, for six years) they add on to the house, when the kids get married, and they never sell the house, they been raising dogs there for 150 years, so why wouldn't they have a good or bad reputation. Everybody knows them, they never move they only die of old age. I rest my case again!

Ok, I had to skip/scan through the latest posts due to readability issues, but as stated earlier, there are quite a few breeders without the "limited" stipulation and those are the ones I buy my dogs from.

I skip the "limited" guys, whatever be their motivation. I also advice others that I know, to skip the "limited" breeders and go with ones who will give you a clear "title".

Just a personal preference and personal choice.

PS: I have personally never bred a litter, ever !

All who buy, breed, or broker dogs/pups let your conscience be your guide...if you have no conscience, sympathy for the dogs that pass through your hands.
Attacking those who do not impose limited reg as policy is, in my opinion, indicative of a nasty temperament. Comprende?

I agree with you 100% Joanro! I will never buy from individuals or so called breeders who sell dogs for more money because of color, sex or full registration. All those things are about one thing, in my opinion which I am entitled to, and that is to get more money.

I'm trying to see where you see an attack. You grouped all of us and said we attacked you. I don't see where.

I clearly stated that the system would only work if EVERYONE did it. It would basically turn it into a user enforced system much like the SV except that the breeders are policing themselves rather than having an organization do it. Since not everyone does it, I have no issues with what people choose to buy, buying full makes sense when you're the customer. But to deny that it's rooted in anything other than breeding rights is laughable.

I also don't agree with breeders charging more for full. It should just be one price. When you see the split, it's clearly trying to get more money out of people. Those people are also the minority though when it comes to breeders who do use limited registration.

SUPER-DAVE, you write:

"In looking back, "Sagey" disagrees with "Beeker318" Sagey's argument is that all dogs are created equal and therefore should have the same rights and privileges of any-other dog; be it pure bred, AKC, SV, Working, Show, or Shelter Mutt! On the other hand, it appears that people should not have the right to own a dog or breed a dog if they want to, and some people should have those rights taken away. "

All I can say, Super-Dave, is that I have no idea how you came to the above nonsensical interpretation from the post I wrote many pages back. No idea whatsoever. I said none of what you claim. I would suggest that you seriously reconsider paraphrasing anyone's words in the future since you seem to misconstrue them into whole different thoughts and meanings than were originally conveyed.

I also don't agree with breeders charging more for full. It should just be one price. When you see the split, it's clearly trying to get more money out of people.

Agreed.  My puppies are the same, regardless of registration

Ok I will address one price for all the puppies, in one litter, or for that matter all the puppies from one breeder. If your a breeder (someone said they never bred a litter, having never been in the water, it's hard for me to understand how they even know what wet feet feel like); but if your a breeder (especially a long time breeder); can you honestly say: that every puppy in every litter you have ever bred, was worth exactly; no more, or no less, than any other puppy in any other litter you bred?  Every pedigree was worth exactly the same as any other pedigree? There were no minor flaws, nasty temperments, deviations, coat lengths, bone structure differances, or preffered colors?  If you would, then I guess you would pay the same price for a VW Beatle that you would pay for a Rolls Royce too.  I'm also guessing that you have no idea what the difference between a grade or premium puppy is either?  I ask you to Acknowledge that you have attached the price of the puppy to wrong reasoning, and that it does have to do with getting more money for a Rolls than a VW, but that price factor has nothing to do with Limited or Full Registration, it is all about the quality of the puppy in the breeders eyes, which is why you have to screen your breeders, not your buyers!

re: aaykay post about skip/scanning because of readability; it amazes me how some Canary's can sing out of tune so loud and so long, until an old stalwart comes into the room and every one realizes loud mouth has no experience, and should not be singing out of tune in public. Never bred a litter indeed! I'm not sure you ever owned a dog either.