IPO Training Order - Page 2

Momo, they can´t do it because they didn´t learn it.
On the other hand a STp dog is not able to do the IPO tracking routine.
Why? He didn´t learn it...

@susie, I strongly disagree and I'm sure people that who do professional, security based, scentwork would disagree as well. My club tested this out to a limited extent, with a mix of about 15 various AKC, IRO and IPO event trained dogs (with AKC and IPO trained dogs making up the majority).  TD/TDX/VST dogs could find most the articles in a practice STp (tested levels 1-3) and RH1 trained dogs could as well, ALL without ever having been exposed to the STp previously. However, the IPO1-3 dogs had the most inconsistent results and were the least successful. This kind of goes back to what I was originally saying, the STp is not really that much different from a real world track, but is significantly different from the scoring criteria used in an IPO track. 

In fact, your response sort of confirms what I have been saying all these years, on the forum, about dog scentwork training, in IPO, being driven primarily by "wives tales" and not science.  I have met TONS of top IPO trainers, MANY TIMES BETTER THAN MYSELF, that go to nationals, get to the podium etc., that couldn't train an FH2 or VST dog to save thier lives, because, they have FULLY bought into these "wives tales" and at the same time have no intention of possibly getting low FH marks in thier dogs scorebooks.

As for whether an STp dog can do an IPO track, per the scoring criteria, is certainly debatable.  In my experience, dogs trained in air and ground scenting, to find articles covered in human skin rafts, can do the TD/TDX/VST, FH1-2, the tracking phases in the RH and the STp1-3, switching between all four without a lot of difficulty (however a dog trained this way will not score well in the FH1-2, as a result). 

Air or ground scenting to an article, covered in skin rafts, is the same to the dog conceptually.  Part of the problem lies in most IPO dogs not being trained to "solve" tracking problems on thier own, they are merely looking for patterns in the grass that match thier trialing environments.  Which goes back to why I said many IPO dogs are not really doing tracking in the first place.

"..., the STp is not really that much different from a real world track, but is significantly different from an IPO track."

Are we talking about a "real world track" or are we talking about "tracking" and nosework as a whole?
I never questioned that dogs TRAINED for article search will find ARTICLES way easier.... ?!?
These dogs work totally different to IPO style trained dogs.
Broadly speaking, the main goal in training IPO style tracking is to teach the dog to follow a step scent track as exact as possible, articles are part of the track, but not essential.
It´s first and foremost about tracking, not about article search.

You are able to pass IPO tracks and FH tracks without finding one single article, but the TRACKING has to be perfect.

IPO 1 : 100 points , 2 articles ( 11 + 10 points )
IPO 2 : 100 points , 2 articles ( 11 + 10 points )
IPO 3 : 100 points , 3 articles ( 3 x 7 points )
FH 1 : 100 points , 4 articles ( 3 x 5, 1 x 6 points )
FH 2 : 100 points , 7 articles ( 7 x 3 points )

Articles are good for 21 points, never more, and a dog finding no article will not be disqualified... it´s about the tracking style.

Comparing the IPO routine to StPr routine is like comparing apples to oranges.

This is out of the current StPr trial rules:

Das Stöberfeld soll vor dem Auslegen/Auswerfen der Gegenstände von Personen mehrfach kreuz und quer begangen werden, um beim Auslegen keine „Fährten“ zu hinterlassen.

I try to translate:

The "field" shall be crossed prior to laying down the articles by several people more than once in all directions, SO THERE ARE NO TRACKS LEFT FROM LAYING THE ARTICLES DOWN.

Is anybody able to see the difference? Anybody able to understand what I try to explain?

StPr dogs are not trained to follow tracks, they are trained to find articles.

Totally different styles of training and goals, none of them better or worse, simply totally different.

Nobody is going to compare Usain Bolt to Dennis Kimetto, both are runners, but that´s it.

SO THERE ARE NO TRACKS LEFT FROM LAYING THE ARTICLES DOWN.

@susie, You do know this statement is BS pseudo science, right?  It doesn't work that way.  A good scent dog that knows how to search for articles and can work around nearly any kind of cross track.  You would need a 30+ people running wildly around the trialing area, for a few minutes, littering it with skin rafts, to fool a dog that knows what its doing.  I've never seen that thorough of a cross track done in a STp, ever.

You still don't get it, there are many dogs that can and do airscenting, to a degree, with their heads down. Thats why I said, a dog that can do article searches well, can potentially pass an FH, but an IPO dog can't pass the article search without remedial training.  Just because most trainers are training the dogs for the STp to search out "leather articles" instead of aged skin rafts, doesn't make what I have said incorrect.  So, I'm not surprised that a dog trained to find "leather articles" can't work out the skin raft trail, that would lead them to the article.

Will a dog that naturally airscents pass an FH everytime, no. Can they have a day when they keep their head down due to wind or other environmental conditions and still pass the FH, yes.

I've seen, I've done it, it happens

Forgot to mention the other MAIN difference :

In IPO tracking the dog ( in case the dog doesn´t believe in "wives tales", but in real tracking ) has to search on it´s own, whereas in StPr the handler follows a middle line, the dog moving a pattern, directed by the handler, not by scent, it´s a similar pattern like a IPO dog during part C when searching the blinds (but the StPr field is smaller than an IPO training field).

You can´t compare it.

@susie, a dog that knows how to work skin rafts does its own search pattern in the STp, in IPO or the FH.  The dogs can be trained to work the area on thier own, just like a track.  Again science, not "wives tales".

BS pseudo science? It´s out of the official StPr rulebook...

YOU still don´t get it, I am not saying IPO style is better, I am not saying, StPr is nonsense, I am saying it´s DIFFERENT.

And I have been out in wind, dirt, and snow too many times laying tracks for GREAT tracking IPO and FH dogs, to read about obedience, wives tales, and visible foot steps.

I told you on another occasion, it´s a shame IPO folks in your area don´t seem to know how to train their dogs accordingly, but honestly, that´s their problem, not the problem of IPO in itself.

What the hell is security based scent work??

IPO trained dogs are the best at IPO style tracking cos that's how they have been trained.

@susie, the BS pseudo science part of the statement is that it is pressumed the skin rafts of the article layer can be disguised with such little effort, it cannot.

@ vk4gsd in some countries its called the "Security Dog Industry".  Its not obvious to you that "security based" functions would inlcude man-tracking, contrband search, evidence recovery, etc?

 

Momo, this dog LEARNED the search patterns - shall we call this OBEDIENCE instead of tracking?
This whole discussion is useless, we had it before.
I hope your dogs enjoy StPr, mine enjoyed IPO style, doesn´t make them better or worse, both kinds of dogs are working.