Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 10

I agree black mal

Hans: But in sport, regress that IPO of SchH calls part of their routine "protection", it is not real protection . In sport "protection" ideally should be demonstration of dog to be able to trained protection but sport dog is NOT trained to actually protect or perform LE bitework.

I think this a very fair and accurate statement, it has lead in the past to lots of pages of arguments but is pretty spot on.

Black Mal with regards to that decline of quality civil dogs I recall many times discussions about whether dogs are better now than before, the debates of lack of good dogs and others beliefs that there are good dogs everywhere it donned on me with your post these discussions were most likely rooted on civil or civil dogs and the lack of them.

Hans: I have already touched on that . Civil mindset can be inherited or trained. To say that only dogs who are civil are dogs who are born with such quality is in my opinion incorrect . I personally call dog with has inborn ability to be civil as Type 1 dog.

Hans to what degree can civil be trained in your mind? Can some of the fireside bred shepherds today rise to the level of this type 1 dog? I just can't see that happing.

gigante, civil mindset CANNOT be trainet if it is geneticly not there, what some people do is train a prey dog to see bodyparts as prey and try to make it function that way

and its no big secret that bitework in sports like IPO and KNPV are prey motivated and therefore ideally need different dog than LE

Duke I agree.

For me as I stated a dog is or it is not. I differ with Hans on this. For me its black and white as Gee stated, and easy to determine. I don't mind discussing differing opinions though :)

Thats why I was interested in GSDfans definition, without that you can't follow their thought process.

Gigante. Absolutely yes. I divide sound dogs into 2 types:

Type 1 dogs = genetically to be civil dogs. No training to be civil is necessary. These dogs( same as all dogs) still need to be trained organized protection and protection on command,. that should go without saying. There are probebly less then 10% of dogs  like that.

Type 2 dogs = sound dogs which are not automatically civil by inheritance. But thay have capability to be trained to be civil. That is at least 90% of the dogs today. 

In my opinion there is no difference between type 1 and 2 dog's civil ability if  type 2 dog is trained well. 

  I am excluding here from type 1 and type 2 dogs dogs who do not have ability ( genetically) to be trained  to be civil. Those dogs are not sound for this purpose and probaly otherwise too and that is why I am putting emphasis on word "sound" in my description. 

 I guess we could call these  dogs  who are unable to be trained protection Type 3 dogs. 

 I will say  for what ever it is worth; based on 5 decades of my experience and training hundreds or even thousands of dog PP/LE work I will say that at least 80-90% of working and herding dogs  are in category type 1 or type 2. 

Type1 = 10%
Type2 = 90%
10 + 90 = 100

Type3 = ?

Later on 80 - 90% type1 + type2, that leaves 10 - 20% for type3

Either there are 110 - 120%, or something went wrong...

Prager: "I will say for what ever it is worth; based on 5 decades of my experience and training hundreds or even thousands of dog PP/LE work I will say that at least 80-90% of working and herding dogs are in category type 1 or type 2."

According to your statement your type1 and type2 dogs are able to work as "street dogs" or PP dogs "when trained well" -
so 80 - 90% ( forget the 100% ) of the German Shepherd Dog breed are genetically capable "to do the job"?

Wow, either I really misinterpreted the status quo and the capability of this breed totally during all these years, you are the ultimate dog whisperer, or your requirements for working dogs totally differ from mine...

Only as a sidenote,why don´t you call your "type1" dogs "genetically civil dogs", and your "type2" dogs "civil trained dogs" ( in case they really are trained ) ?

in some paralell universe LOL

Nice try but no cigars.  I see that math is not strong suit for you. If instead just to hasten to disagreement with me , you would read carefully what I am saying you would see that Type 1 and Type 2 dogs are in different group then type 3 dogs. I call Type 1 and 2 dogs sound dogs which can be trained to be civil or are genetically so.  That is one group. Lets call it apples.   Where type 3 dogs are not in that group but they are sum of all dogs who can or can not be civil. Lets call that group oranges.   So you can not add percentages of apples and oranges.  I hope this help. 

As far as status quo goes I stand behind it. 80- 90 % of herding or working dogs of type 1 or 2 can be trained to be LE or PP dogs to some usable level if trained properly. That is big if, since today's sportism approach to such training will eliminate most good dogs from such training.

 I am saying this since I have trained people PP dogs for living  since early 1980ies and that is what I got. That training included broad variety of  breeds including standard  poodle. 

Personally I do not care what you can or can  not do,  but your judging me by your abilities will not give you true picture. 

 

 

susie:Only as a sidenote,why don´t you call your "type1" dogs "genetically civil dogs", and your "type2" dogs "civil trained dogs" ( in case they really are trained ) ?

 

Hans: why not? :) well because it is 3x and 4x shorter and just to make  people like you to wonder.   

So let me get this straight... Prager say that some dogs that are not inherently civil can be trained to be so.

 I call Type 1 and 2 dogs sound dogs which can be trained to be civil or are genetically so

And Duke among others say that civil dogs are genetically that way and dogs either are civil or not based on inheritance.

...civil mindset CANNOT be trainet if it is geneticly not there,

Is this a correct summary of the arguments posted?   Perhaps because civil means different things to different people this is what confuses the matter.

 

I believe that a dog is genetically predisposed to civil aggression,  and whether through training it is brought out and controlled (managed) or suppressed, it will still be there.    The dog is what it is -  like eye colour,  civil aggression will be present or not genetically, and if present then expressed or not, depending on upbringing or training.