Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 3

Not to be rude or try to take credit away from anyone. But Hans was not the one who pointed out that the decoy pried the dog off his hand. I noticed it right away when watching the video and commented on it on the last page. I was the first one to notice and commented. Hans, for that reason, researched the video and made his comment.

As for civil dogs not carrying a sleeve. I agree with Koots. My retired female now is very civil and would carry a sleeve. If she is in prey at the time the sleeve is slipped she will carry it. But ANY challenge from the helper she would drop the sleeve and switch and become civil and would have no qualms biting the helper WITHOUT the sleeve present. My first WG working line male was the same way.

"... it is not civil because civil dog does not carry sleeve around and will never show his ass to the decoy."

I agree this statement is ignorant and false. Any good balanced dog can be conditioned in training to do this OR not do this (even if it naturally wants to) regardless of civility. A dog you try but can't condition to do this severely unbalanced in their drives (heavily defensive with insufficient prey).

Even a civil dog that hovers on the defensive side of balance will carry/hold slipped equipment if that's all he can reach due to being restricted by the leash (provided the helper isn't agitating).

 

Civil doesn't mean they hate equipment, it just means they prefer the man.

Jyl and GSDfan  - .  

Jyl - you are not being rude,  you are the one with 'the good eye'.

Koots, thanks.

GSDFan,
Good posts!! I agree with what you said. As I mentioned I do agree a civil dog will carry a sleeve.

And nice pup Duke...such willingness to engage the man at his age is certainly a nice trait that will only get better with maturity. That to compliment his other nice working behaviors...I think he will do well regardless what direction you take him.

Hans you are correct in evaluating video this time, we did it with more dogs before, and also in this case he rolled up sweater sleeve but for some reason slipped it or let go, and yes the helper forced him to let go, just like Jyl saw right away, the rest I disagree

I believe if he was a equipment oriented dog he wouldnot bite in that place, but target on middle left arm, and secondly even the most civil dog which has good balance in drives, after training on sleeve multiple times will carry,

some dogs like the one in "training badass dog " topic also have extreme possesiveness which makes him want to keep the sleeve, dumbell etc and carry it even more, but still are very civil

this is one of my dogs one would call civil, but now im training her to title, now she is carrying sleeve, doesnot mean she is not civil anymore

https://youtu.be/I6slp8wuEec

https://youtu.be/2lRlrKPTlNQ

I like her! Nice balanced drives.

I was not going to get into pissing contest over this again. I have just stated my opinion in order to make at least some people think. Of course that immediately induced personal insults by calling me or my statements ignorant. Well so be it. Based on former similar discussions here I am not surprised that you guys call this dog civil and feel threatened by my opinions to the point that some of you are resorting to insults. This is a young dog with minimal training according to Duke 13 mo. If you think   based on what you see on this video that this dog prancing around with the sleeve showing ass to a decoy is civil , then I assure you that you are wrong. True,..the dog may be civil  but he sure as hell does not show it on this video. In order to prove that the dog is civil such dog would have to drop the sleeve immediately as the sleeve is being pulled off the arm or as soon as the sleeve is off.

Also  if you think that the dog is civil because he by mistake bit hand of the decoy then that is another error. Again I am not saying that the dog is not civil but what I see on the video by no means demonstrates such quality. 

 

Also to teach the true pp/le dog prancing around with sleeve in his mouth is IMO humble opinion disconnect in training purpose. True,  there may be sport dogs who are also LE/PP civil  dogs and there are some.  But I'll say again that is not what we see here.  

Also to think that the dog is civil because the dog will bite when sleeve is not present could be fatal error. What a true well trained civil dog does is, that he bites for real in spite of presence of sleeve or any other bite equipment. I know that I am pissing many people here off by saying so because they train their dogs in such a way which I can not recommend. However despite of expected insults I just feel obligated to say so because people actually have died because thinking like this as I have pointed and documented here on PDB   before. But I do not want  this to be De-ja-vu discussion all over again. Unfortunately such a benevolent and " Ignorant " latitude and attitude is what we see these day quite often and it is considered a norm and any other type of training or opposing opinion  is dismissed  as ignorant.    Too bad. Carry on. JMO. 

 

Again on this video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6slp8wuEec&feature=youtu.be

 the dog is not displaying civil behavior. She may be civil and probably is but civil dog is not just dog which will bite for real but also it matters what the dog does after the decoy pulls out of the bite equipment in this case sleeve. If the dog carries sleeve then the dog is not ready for street work despite of the dog's ability to bite for real and can not be declared civil because in this specific situation the dog is failing to demonstrate such ability. True civil dog must display such ability in all situations and not just now and then in select scenarios.   Also if the formerly  civil dog is retrained to be sport dog and if it is done  in  linear fashion rather then in parallel fashion ( separately) then such dog again is not civil any more. Not IMO.      Prallel training will however generate sport dog and civil pp/le dog in one,  if done correctly.