Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 4

On this video :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lRlrKPTlNQ

All I see is 100% sleeve work I do not even know whay it is presented in this discussion about civil dogs. 

Jyl yes you pointed it out before me . That is why I have reviewed the video. I will give credit where credit is due:). Thank you.

 

This dog is in his drives  in scenario what he has done many many times

with a sleeve on the arm from a decoy.

 

WOW It,s easy te sell "civil" dogs from the www to dog people this days.

No more saying... also interesting to read what people understand about "civil "dogs
realy is . So if dogs bite decoys without equipment  by  standard scenario he has done  many may times  we have now civil dogs.   ...???  

I don,t think so

Put him in a unknown  suprise scenario, unknown helper with pain stress, noises. distraction

in dark etc etc   than you will get more  and better info about your dog.

A good dog  will bite on sleeve,suit with or without protection it doesn,t matter

Too many people this days are too much focus about equipment...

I look more  why the dog will bite what is his reason  and  his drives, behavior  the total picture,,,,

 

@ hans, we than should agree to disagree respectfully, but will take out one point from you which is really 100% wrong IMO
you cannot untrain geneticly civil dog with sleeve/sport training and say it lost its civil behaviour

recently sold an IPO3 dog to australia(police) and it had several live bites already, they claim its the best dog they had in long time

civil has NOTHING to do with training

Also Hans, not every dog will go to police, as you should know as a specialist in czech situations, I need to title my dogs in order to be able to breed them so im forced to work them on the sleeve,

this however will not change their genetics or what they will give to their offspring

Duke - that is a nice female (Alma), substantial structure, good pigment and nice drives. Is she a breeding female for you? What is her ped?

@black malinois.
I tend to agree with some of your conclusion . Except I am talking about what we can see on the video. To me the dog is civil if he targets a man in preference of equipment. Accidental bites like we see on the video do not b\make dog civil.

@duke. We have definition brake down. I do not consider dog which bites necessarily genetically "civil" dog per se. My definition of a civil dog is broader then that. That is what I call type 1 dog exactly for the reason that it is not same as civil. I see Civil dog as trained dog of type one or type  two where type one dog is not necessarily trained to bite in a civil way ( for real) . I agree with you that if you consider type 1 dog included in definition of civil dog then such inherited "civil " attitude can not be changed by any training.  But if genetically civil dog ( what I call  type one dog) is trained from get go or is retrained in linear fashion to target equipment than  suxch dog will do so. I mean that is why such training is done ! Right? The dog is trained to target equipment like sleeve for example. Once such ttraining is done in linear fashion and not in parallel fashion  then such dog  should no longer to be consider 100% civil. 

Duke:"some dogs like the one in "training badass dog " topic also have extreme possesiveness which makes him want to keep the sleeve, dumbell etc and carry it even more, but still are very civil" Hans: That is totally not so. The dog is not civil id\f he on certain occasions bite the man. The dog is civil if he prefers to bite a man 100% of the time over the sleeve.

This is again breakage in communication of definition of what is "civil" dog. Different often contrasting definitions of one term are usually the cause of much disagreement. For example we can see that in definition of the word "civil' dog:

 Some believe that dog is civil if he has capability to bite man in specific occasions from 1%- 99% . If that is the case then Duke is correct.

I beleive that the dog can not be called civil unless he prefers to bite a man 100% of the time and not less. In that case duke is wrong. 

 Unfortunatelly there is no standard list of generally accepted definitions .

I really didn´t want to get involved, because we already discussed civil/prey ad nauseum, but Prager´s statement is wrong.

Prager: " the dog is not displaying civil behavior. She may be civil and probably is but civil dog is not just dog which will bite for real but also it matters what the dog does after the decoy pulls out of the bite equipment in this case sleeve. If the dog carries sleeve then the dog is not ready for street work despite of the dog's ability to bite for real and can not be declared civil because in this specific situation the dog is failing to demonstrate such ability. True civil dog must display such ability in all situations and not just now and then in select scenarios. Also if the formerly civil dog is retrained to be sport dog and if it is done in linear fashion rather then in parallel fashion ( separately) then such dog again is not civil any more. Not IMO. Prallel training will however generate sport dog and civil pp/le dog in one, if done correctly."

The term "civil" in itself has absolutely nothing to do with a dog "ready for streetwork".
"Civil" is a mindset, whereas "ready for streetwork" is the result of training.

A dog that "carries a sleeve" is a dog that has some prey drive ( as all of us have seen in the videos Prager posted, even his dogs tried to "carry the prey" ).

Once again, "civil" or "civility" is an inborn mindset, and not the result of training. A lot of "civil" dogs are very successful in IPO, they do carry the sleeve, but all of this doesn´t change their inborn mindset. It´s training, nothing else...

There is no 100% civil/ 0% prey dog ( okay, maybe some dogs with major behavioural disorders... ), otherwise every "healthy, normal" dog does have at least some prey drive, and in case you train this dog by using its prey drive, it will USE its prey drive ( proudly carrying the prey, winning, feeling good ).

Guess we need to distinguish between "civil" and "ready for the street" - but in this case we have to face the next problem: A lot of very successful "street" dogs are working because of prey, not because of "civility".

Just read your posts...

" I see Civil dog as trained dog of type one or type two ..."

You may see it like that, but that´s not true. "Civil/civility" is inborn, not trained.

You yourself called it "attitude", maybe the better word for "mindset" - my English sucks.