Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 9

BW said - :
"based on your own experience and idea of what civil is you can see if a dog has it or doesn't. Not saying it's wrong, but it's subjective".

Nowt subjective about it - it's literally black and white.

Also the test you are asking to know about - no offence but the fact you don't know how to read/test for the drives we are talking about, oh and by the way that includes fight drive. Is insightful, but in know way surprising.

Gee

I can read all of those drives...civil in my opinion can be very subjective. Especially when discussing it in a genetic rather than trained for sense. If your definition is just a dog that will "live bite" then it's quite easy to test for or a dog that looks right at the helper from the get go rather than at a sleeve or a section of the body...but I don't think that is the end all be all calling a dog "genetically civil."

Unfortunately...while you're busy throwing insults my way you're not realizing what I'm saying at all and how much credit I'm giving to dogs that you and gigante like and claim to breed. I know there are various levels of "civil" when it comes to dogs. Some more, some less.

Maybe if it came from someone that you don't have a negative connotation to...reread GSDFan's post, where she speaks about the different drives and how they all come together and present as "civil." Maybe that will help you understand how I think. It's not black/white...nothing with dog training is. Various levels of drive...prey/defense, various levels of thresholds, various levels of suspicion, and of course various levels of training ability of the handler all come together to give us the finished product.

I don´t get the point...

All of us ( GSDfan, Duke, Bav, and myself ) believe that a "civil" dog is civil because of genetics, not because of training.
All of us know that there are "genetically" civil IPO dogs that are successfully trained on a high level.
All of us know that there are "civil" dogs with a lot of preydrive, too.
All of us know that a dog will show the "trained" behavior first and foremost.
All of us know it´s possible to "train" a dog to bite civil, although the dog in itself is not genetically civil.
All of us know that a dog is the result of a lot of drives, including more or less '"prey" drive.
All of us know that it´s possible to "guide" the preference of a puppy by training.
All of us know that any dog is the result of genetics and training...
All of us know you need to have experience with different dogs and different training to know about genetically/trained drives.

Did I miss anything?
What´s the main problem?
The "style" of training?
The ultimate goal?

A good dog is a good dog, a genetically civil dog is a civil dog, no matter the training, no matter the personal goal.

Good post Suzie

@ gigante I am not sure if you have a reading comprehension issue or are purposefully concluding what I said improperly so this will be my last response to you.  Everything to say has been said...re-read if you need to. 

I am the one who said civil drive was inherent.

All drives and traits fall on a spectrum from low to high...and one can affect the other and almost everything can be built on with training WITHIN REASON. Including the dogs willingness to bite a man without equipment. But that does not change the inherent civil drive the dog brings or does not bring to the table.  If its low you can build on it, if its present you cannot take it away.  If he doesnt have it he never will. I often set it aside only to re-visit later once the dog is more confident or mature. If a dog has inherent civil drive it is always right where I left it.

And i forgot to comment on your claim that training a dog to follow rules is the same as teaching him its a game. If you trained a dog to do more than just be a chainsaw on a leash who barely understands the out command with little secondary obedience you would understand what teaching a dog rules is all about.

Good post, Susie!......There is no end all be all in dog training...but a complex set of drives, temperaments, and training skill sets that all interrelate that defines what is in front of you. Many different roads lead to Rome and they all will get there....just from different directions and in different times.

@Gsdfan

Good Paragraph, finally clarity in the position from you. If in one post you can train it...... GSDFAN STATES: “The only difference is training, conditioning and exposure. Dog is the same…. And another post you say inherit and bounce between the two depending on the topic or question asked of you, its really hard to grasp a position or thought on your meaning of the word. There's nothing wrong with my comprehension.

GSDfan: And i forgot to comment on your claim that training a dog to follow rules is the same as teaching him its a game. If you trained a dog to do more than just be a chainsaw on a leash who barely understands the out command with little secondary obedience you would understand what teaching a dog rules is all about.

Please… don’t be silly, you didn’t forget anything! If you wanted to answer you would have, your attack is not an answer. Soooooo comprehensibly speaking, you have still not answered why its different? :) Do avoid that... but save the silly attacks for BW and pete. You are clearly a capable person. Theres no reason to dream up fiction, for avoidence. 

Chainsaw on a leash thats awesome.... I"m going to have to borrow that, good stuff!
 

Susie: The term "civil" in itself has absolutely nothing to do with a dog "ready for streetwork".

Hans: dog ready for street must be civil but not all civil dogs are ready for street. Thus if the dog is not civil then he / she is not ready for street work. That is what I am trying to say. Sorry that I did not make it more clear.
..............
Susie: A dog that "carries a sleeve" is a dog that has some prey drive ( as all of us have seen in the videos Prager posted, even his dogs tried to "carry the prey" ).
Hans : prey drive is not determent just by fact that the dog is carrying a sleeve!!~!!!!And dog carrying sleeve does not mean that he is not civil same way as the dog who carries tennis ball or stick. I have never said that dog who is carying sleeve stick ball  is not civil! But dog carrying sleeve in presence of a decoy is not civil.

My videos which you see where dog may be holding onto the sleeve  are videon of training in progress and many dog in my videos have come here already more or less trained as sport dogs thus they carry sleeve. My training of PP/LE dogs is directed to train the dog not to be busy with the sleeve once is off the decoys arm.
Also when I train the dog for sport then I let him carry a sleeve. But that is different training.
...............
Sussie: Once again, "civil" or "civility" is an inborn mindset, and not the result of training. A lot of "civil" dogs are very successful in IPO, they do carry the sleeve, but all of this doesn´t change their inborn mindset. It´s training, nothing else...

Hans: I have already touched on that . Civil mindset can be inherited or trained. To say that only dogs who are civil are dogs who are born with such quality is in my opinion incorrect . I personally call dog with has inborn ability to be civil as Type 1 dog.
I have also said in great detail in many posts that dog can be sport dog and civil PP/LE dog if the training is done in parallel and not in linear way. I have done it many times.
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Susie:There is no 100% civil/ 0% prey dog ( okay, maybe some dogs with major behavioural disorders... ), otherwise every "healthy, normal" dog does have at least some prey drive, and in case you train this dog by using its prey drive, it will USE its prey drive ( proudly carrying the prey, winning, feeling good ).
Hans: Nowhere have I said such thing. SMH on this one. Nowhere have I said that civil dog has no prey drive. I have not even used word prey in my former 2 posts. Through decades I am maintaining that dog must be civil in defense and(!!!) prey . So I have no  clue to what you are referring here to.
I would like to say one more time. IMO dog is civil if when he   is commanded to attack a person and he or she prefers to bite that person rather then to be preoccupied with sleeve or other equipment. Dog playing with sleeve when he supposed to be targeting a man is not a civil dog. I see on OP the video a dog playing with a sleeve when in presence of decoy which supposed to be his enemy! Decoy = mimics enemy. Where in sport "helper" is not "decoy" and helper is not dogs enemy but it is his friend who has his (dog's) toy ( sleeve) on his arm. In presence of the helper carrying ( and thus targeting) sleeve is OK but THAT IS NOT PROTECTION TRAINING. That is SPORT TRAINING. In PP teianing the dog targets the man - the bad guy which is here represented by DECOY.
And training which teaches the PP dog to target sleeve with the intention to un-teach him that later is SPORTISM and illogical approach to training IMO and in my experience
DEJAVU all over gain.

Let me add this for clarity. Civil dog if commanded or if in protection situation like in area protection situation, will target a man-decoy but will bite the sleeve if there is no other opportunity to bite the unprotected part of the body of the decoy or in another words he sees the sleeve as a part of a man same as a shirt of sweater. However this civil dog in PP / LE scenario is targeting man and thus if the decoy sheds the sleeve or other bite equipment the dog MUST REDIRECT on the man immediately .
Now if this same civil PP/LE dog is in parallel fashion ( in different venue and training system) trained sport, then he may / will and should carry sleeve. But in sport, regress that IPO of SchH calls part of their routine "protection", it is not real protection . In sport "protection" ideally should be demonstration of dog to be able to trained protection but sport dog is NOT trained to actually protect or perform LE bitework.

Deleted, because we had this discussion before, repetitions won´t change anything

 

Hans make some good points in his post.

What I have learned good  quality civil and defense trainers,decoys, breeders is hard to find this days who understand realy the game and this is someting were I,m worried about no matter wich breed.