A man's dog: An old school A #$ hole. - Page 4

Sorry Jen

Im Hispanic

Most Men will use physicality FIRST...

Most Women will use patience and know how FIRST...

I personally think that women make better handlers then men...The reason I say this is because most women have more patience then men do when training...

I have found that when training a dog that is super high drive or a dog that's fighting doing something that patience is what's needed...Dog's can only fight for so long...then they comply...So if you just WAIT...they will settle down and work with you...But most men don't think like this...they think more of I'll force this dog to do this or that...Where a woman will just wait and try to figure out another way of doing it...

 

~Bob~

You guys are quite skilled at taking a portion of a sentence completely out of context. What I said was, that podium dogs are just as big of a-holes as the dogs that most people trying to get there fail with because they have the ability to take that type of dog and actually succeed with it. The lesser trainers use “this dog is too much of an a-hole” as an excuse as to why they haven’t achieved the same level of success as those on the podium. Out of control/too much dog becomes an excuse because the trainer isn’t willing to admit they don’t have the skill to train that type of dog to the highest level. Can other people train those dogs? ABSOLUTELY. But they’re not getting to a national/regional/club podium anytime soon.

Bob…excellent post. I find this as well. Since a female knows they can’t just over power a dog, they tend to have patience and use other tools that remove much of the conflict from the training. What I see with women is that their dogs tend to learn behaviors where as with men the behaviors are forced and the dog is constantly testing their limits and pushing the rules. Most men also would rather have a “strong” dog that breaks secondary obedience and tries to eat the helper, women tend to understand the “sport” portion of IPO more and understand where points are lost. Men are usually the ones that are on the internet complaining that the scoring system of IPO is a farce and how their strong dogs that show no obedience should score higher than the more obedient dogs which usually bite just as hard and just as well…but like I’ve stated before…out of control = power in their mind so anything that’s in control and performs just as well can’t possibly be as powerful as the dog they have (again comes back to how if they can’t control the dog then no one can and it means the dog is a monster).

I’ve noticed that the more places I go and the more I see, the more I realize how much of the “strong/powerful dog” is just lack of training/control. Those that head out to clubs, watch training, go to competitions, will see through the internet and phone talk. 99% of people in IPO believe they have the greatest/strongest/most dominant dog ever made…and that’s why they can’t get a V score. But when you see the dog, and you see the training, it usually paints a different picture.

Jenni,

No admin edited any of your posts on this thread. If they would have, they would have copied it to the admin forum. I see none of those posts so I asked each admin and none of them edited any of your posts in this thread.

No, I understand what you are saying, but you constantly put forth this theme that podium winners are epitome of training. Yes, it may be for sport, but I have trained with great podium folks, ( are Wallace, Dean, or T Floyd high enough) and trained with great K9 trainers, military trainers, PSA trainers, etc that are just as skilled, but they are not seeking podiums. The narrative that certain dogs must reach a podium in order for the trainer to have proved their worth or to prove their worth is very limited. There are a lot of great trainers that have no interest in participating in sport, but it doesn't diminish their knowledge or skills. That's my only point, and I have been fortunate enough to have worked in these venues to recognize excellence in all these areas. There are fair, good, and excellent trainers in all these fields, none is better, they just seek different outcomes.jmo

I’ve yet to meet a single high level trainer who wants a handler aggressive dog. I’ve yet to meet any kind of police or military handler that would want one as well. Very very very few GSDs or Mals are truly handler aggressive and it’s usually handler/trainer created due to a lack of clarity in the training and the dog finally having had enough. A lot of times what you see is that handler aggression means the dog would rather “fight” than shut down, which is what people want to see, and so when the dog is finally in the hands of a capable handler they will teach the dog what they want and the handler aggression goes away while the power stays.

Management? I’ve never really heard anyone having problems managing a dog because high level people tend to kennel their animals and aren’t the ones taking their dogs to the farmer’s market every weekend. I do have high energy/high drive dogs which aren’t “safe” around everyone. They just don’t get taught the same kinds of manners that pets do and therefore are easier to manage by keeping out of the way of guests to my home. Not the end of the world for my dog to be kenneled while people are over.

I think you’re right about the other things and people do want harder/stronger dogs. High level training requires a lot of pressure from the handler and the dog has to be able to take it without taking it personally and shutting down. Dominant is something that comes with that as you can’t take a dog to a high level and worry that it will crumble seeing a newer/bigger/faster helper/decoy.

The people I see you idolizing and speaking with generally play down the dogs that are winning as softer and weaker because they don’t actually have the ability to train the type of dog they like (as you’ve described) to that level themselves. They make themselves feel better by saying that the dogs that are on the podium are softer, weaker, prey based, not aggressive, ect. The truth 99.9% of the time they just don’t have the ability to train a dog of that caliber, or…their lack of training ability and control makes the dog look stronger or “more dominant” than it really is and they sell that to. There are even plenty of times where the handler figures out that their dog isn’t as hard/strong and has to back off the pressure/control in order to maintain some level of power from the dog.  ----Bavarian Wagon 

This needed to be posted agian as there is a lot of TRUTH, EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in what was written

The narrative I put forth in this thread was in response to the male breeders that Mithuna is probably speaking with when he mentions the type of dog they like. The majority of them are probably more focused on IPO or a similar sport in order to prove their lines. Most breeders I know are more focused on sport because the real work training takes too much time and most of them don’t waste their time on puppies so breeding is generally not something they’re involved with. I’ve also seen in other threads who Mithuna speaks highly of and the types of trainers/breeders that he idolizes and supports. Those are the types of people who constantly bash the high placing dogs and claim that they’re worse than whatever it is they’re producing and yet they lack any real evidence to back up that claim.

We’re also probably speaking about “personal dogs.” As even the best K9 trainer can’t place a dog that only that trainer can handle…if the dog is too much for a handler on the street its useless right?

Also…I highly doubt people like Wallace Payne, T. Floyd, or their equivalents in the K9 world are taking the time to speak with someone like Mithuna. I have a picture of who exactly is speaking with him and it’s not the people that most of us would consider excellent trainers.

Bob, I don't even think it's patience so much as the fact that women aren't used to being able to overpower things, so we simply approach things from a problem-solving perspective as opposed to a "I will conquer!" ;). When you're small, you need to be smart. Also, another component is that some very very dominant males are worse with men than women. I mean, we need to be fair here and say sometimes a certain type dog will just be nicer to a female handler than a male handler. I had one like that- he was a jerk but great to me. It was like he just loved me and knew there was nothing I could do to MAKE him behave, so he humored me.

Admin, I dunno what was going on. Half of my post was missing, then double posts showed up, a mod's posts were visible, then not...maybe it was just on my end. I told Mr. Darcy about it.It's no biggie- just didn't have the same context with half missing.

I apologize if anyone thinks I am condoning the type of dog that Mithuna is asking about as being what is sought by sport, police or military. That type of dog is more liability in any endeavor that deals with the public, than of benefit. My point was podium people are not only ones who can train, evaluate, recognize, or breed good dogs. I have many many good friends that are top sport people and I have immense respect for what they do and have achieved, but there are others that are doing these things also except not in sport. So when I hear ; "until a person or dog reaches podium status .....blah blah blah....."..it slights other uses of this breed and their training and trainers,imo. I realize there is a large group of sport or show breeders in the world today and I am not marginalizing them......but many of these breeders are not producing dogs that can do LE or military work, or even urban S&R.
I understand Mithuna has a lot to learn about this breed and is moving too fast, ( just like most trainers in their early years), but there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum from different training backgrounds, and there are more people than Mithuna who have limited knowledge outside their small world. So exclusive statements on training or who can handle said dogs I guess irk me.
I hope I make sense, not trying to demean anyone or any trainers.

just not needed

Western Rider