Roached backs - spread the religion! - Page 5

The "roach back" is a concept that is widely misunderstood and misapplied. A true roach is present in a dog with flat withers whose back arches up above a horizontal line drawn from the withers. Beyond this an excessively round back remains undesireable, but function is more important than specific type and personal aesthetic preferences. I believe that todays rounded backs developed as a result of selection AGAINST dippy backs as seen in AKC dogs. Short broad muzzles are nothing new, but have been the standard and subject of selection since the early days. The weak, long nosed collie heads of the AKC type are not correct, then they are not expected to have a firm grip. The problems of dentition are very real, and breeders must maintain a balance between short broad muzzles and correct dentition. The result of this balance is the dog with a correctly proportioned skull. I am far more concerned with the trend toward deeper rear angulation, which yields a lack of balance in gaiting. It also does not facilitate optimal leverage and efficiency, diminishing the endurance and athletic ability. Excessive rear angulation as a result of over long tibias in particular leads to a lack of firmness in the hocks and diminished power. Sadly I have seen KoerSchein praising the rear angulation of dogs that are clearly NOT correct. Best Wishes, Jonah

Jonah, I have never been able to find a photo of a GSD whelped much before 1990 with the heavy bulky muzzle I am speaking of. This would be the dog with the sort of head that has way too much stop in addition to a shorter muzzle. I wonder if we are on the same page here. Maybe you could name a few of these older dogs that are pictured on this board so I could take a look at them. I've spent hours here looking at photos and cannot see one dog from the early days with such a head. I think it would be very evident on a show photo, so don't think I've missed it. Thanks for you time.

Blitzen, I do not recall any. Many of the early dogs were rather defficient in the head as in many characteristics, but selection brought uniformity and improvement. The tendency overall has been toward correct(balanced) skull proportions among German dogs. There have been those that could have been stronger, but not many extremes. Lasso Neuen Berg was in my opinion part of a transition in type that was greatly solidified by the influence of Jeck sons who produced large masculine heads. Ironically, I have not heard of dentition faults in connection with these lines. This trend toward heavier, broader, high stop heads I consider to be partially a result of breeders hedging against the weaker heads produced by some lines. Finally, as the top shows are more than a competition for most correct structure, a dog with a particularly compelling type and expressive characteristics certainly has an advantage. I am no fan of the Dux Valcuvia lines because of weak temperaments, excessive angulation, mediocre hip production,etc. but no one can deny that he has produced some very impressive males who seem themselves to be producing rather well.

I agree totally with you Jonah... the preference on biggers heads (head hunting) probably started when the Hirschel line specifically from Sgr. Fanto was not able to compete by par with the Odin T. lines. I had a bitch nearly closely linebred in Fanto and Halla and I was able to get progeny with good heads from her ONLY after crossing with Sgr. Jeck lines. These are the only ones I was researching are trying to improve movement and attitude... Thanks Jonah for the information.. I'm learning a lot from these discussions... staying away from Terrorists... I'm sorry I' mean extremists... Chao, Marci

regarding length of croup. This determines the "power" of the rear (as long as the upper, lower thigh bones and hock are not too long and the croup is at or near the correct angle). A long croup allows more muscling to be attached, thus more power. My experience with a lot of xraying of GSDs over the years suggests that width of croup has no relationship to hip dysplasia. What I found was related to hip dysplasia was lack of rear thigh muscle mass. Low muscle mass was associated with more HD and high muscle mass associated with much less HD.

Ok Preston

Ok Preston... Another thing...Im sorry for being ignorant about this and now admit a long croup is not just for aesthetic reasons... but am I right that we're breeding for recessives ??? Like the straighter shoulder is more natural than the 45 degree angulation... a straighter less angulated rear angulation is more natural, like in the earlier days of Osnabruckerland. What can you suggest to minimise on the longer tibia bone with angulations that are being excessive... I now will make it a point NOT to select pups with very angulated rears, will select only pups that even while young exhibit balance...not cow hocked rears. Thanks for the info Preston Clearwater, I rest my argument and hopefully working line people are also reading this so they cant atleast be open minded regarding the rear parts of the GSD.

Ok Marci, its a while ago that I have seen comments from one who breeds, with such poor knowledge of the GSD and the breed, so go on with your breed and let see what you archive, and otherwise there are races that are more your sort of , the malinois or so

Clearwater2, I was first a bit put out by your sniping at Marci, but then I got to thinking... I'd rather have a well-built Malinois capable of explosive power, speed, and agility - rather than a roach-backed, over-angulated GSD that looks a dog in front and a frog in the rear. So I guess we're on the same page afterall. My bad! :P My bottom line is that the GSD should be a working breed, so any breeding that produces extremes in structure or focuses on aesthetics is taking the breed away from it's original purpose. Speaking of Mali's - the Malinois is often replacing the GSD as the breed of choice for real work as patrol dogs and detector dogs. Ever wonder why???

SchHBabe I'm with you. i talked to a couple of the helpers that have worked some of the national events and wanted to know if there were any show dogs that they liked in the work. only a couple came up and one that i found interesting was a dog by the name of Earnhardt vom Haus Mariacher i think the call name is eddy. did some research on this dog and was suprised. i believe he is 17 times sch3 sg rated kkl1 made 286 once, all show lines.i got to see him work and the dog is a monster. he is an excellent working dog. here is the sad news i don't think he has been breed. i came to the conclusion that the show people really don't want to improve working ability. the dog is not pretty enough to make VA so the show people will not breed to him. the working people will not breed to him because he is not from working lines. i also found out that this dog is not a fluke his sire had the same working ability. mother to. the malinois have it right. malinois breeders will breed to the best working dog regardless of were it came from. if the malinois they want to breed to dosn't have papers thats fine by them. they will just get there own papers. this type of breeding insures they breed the best working dogs. they don't limit themselves. they only care first and formost about working ablility.