Czech breeders - Page 11

Can you post those videos? I can not find any "other" videos of Carly with different " better" trainer. 

Putting on my boots, coat and umbrella.

This is not a strong dog.  This is a dog with no control on him.  They all look strong that way.  His grip is crap the work is crap.  His gate is off more than just what Kim noticed (good catch btw).  on the second video he falls off of the sleeve at the 38 sec mark.

he grips on the elbow because of a thin nerve.  It's the last place he can grip and stay out of the "pocket" where the helper can put pressure on him.  He munches the grip at other times with no hanlder interernce but it's cleat that it gets worse as the handler approaches.  Mental conflict with dog and handler.  Big surprise since he hasn't had proper foundation or training.

This sums up my problem with most of the PP training that I see.  Working in a parking lot with a dog who only knows how to bite. lots of screaming and yelling so afterwards we can all sit and drink beer and talk about how tough are dogs are.

It's a shame, this could have been a nice dog, he has nice drive and maybe with correct training he could have become a strong dog.  That boat has sailed and this dog is forever ruined.  All he knows is run and bite (and not even well). 

I feel sorry for the dog, he lives in a kennel with no contact other than what we saw.  Notice when he is let out of the kennel he goes up to no one.  He runs to the gate where whoever puts a leash on him so he can run and bite.   What a miserable life.

@bzcz 

You are making me cry it is so sad.

@bzcz Dog grips tip of the sleeve and not elbow if he has " thin" nerves and not the other way around as you say.  Anybody knows that. 

 BZCZ your post is way of line. You do not know nothing,... absolutely  NOTHING about this dog and how he is or was kept yet you come here and talk like..... well,... you do.  Because if you would know  anything about it than you could never say such .......well statement.   

 Prager Hans

Prager,

I can't get your first video to load,

2nd video, nice dog, bad training.  (more rain gear).  You can hear a whip noise when the video first starts.  That is used to get the dog to react.

A true PP dog has to be active, not reactive and he goes off of the handler cue, not the decoys.  Crack noise is clearly to fire the dog up.

He's supposed to be PP and not equipment oriented.  He is clearly going for the arms even when there is no equipment.  That's why the decoy keeps his arms up and out of the way, so as the dog lunges for them, he can make the miss.  And the dog repeatedly goes for the arms when there were easy body shots to be had.

Grips drive me crazy, I'm a fanatic about grips and this dog is never full.  To be fair, a PP dog shouldn't be either.  A full grip takes too long to disengage if the dog needs to transfer his bite to the other arm with a weapon in it.  I see nothing to tell me that this dog is looking for that although he is awfully young to be taught that complex a training.  Have a hard time believing he's only 15 mos old.  He's a very masculine handsome looking 15 mo old.  (wish mine looked like that).

Part that also bothers me is all of his "catches" are feet first.  He gets his feet on the helper either before the grip or at the same time as the grip.  This is usually the sign of a dog who has been jammed and he's protecting himself.  It also leads to weaker grips than what the dog is capable of.

And again all that screaming!  Constant screaming at a dog is not threat, it's just noise.  Watch a person get bit for real.  He screams like a rabbit,  High pitch wailing and physically goes nuts.  Screaming to test a dog should be purposeful and a complete surprise.

I've got my rain gear on! 

Prager,

Sorry you are dead wrong.  They even sell plastic strips to put on the elbows of sleeves to keep dogs from gripping there.

It is what it is. I let the dog tell me what he knows. I don't think he got a single pet or praise the entire video. He clearly dances away from the handler and tries to avoid being caught up by him.  That's clear conflict between the handler and the dog.  How many minutes do we spend on the video just getting the dog out of the kennel and up to the parking lot?  Tell me where you see the dog coming up to people for pets?

Prager,

Trying to explain the drive to you.

WHen a helper gets the dog on a left sleeve (for example) and drives the dog, The pocket of pressure is roughly between the the helpers knees.  Some weak dogs will grab the tip of the sleeve as you state.  These are dogs who are so weak nerved that they aren't even committed to the grip.  They get out of the pocket at any cost including a weaker less satisfying grip.

Dog who is committed to biting but whose nerve is thin through either genetic or bad training will grip the sleeve in the elbow and move their body out of the pocket to avoid the pressure. Helper will drive in a diagonal direction to his left (if it is correct) and the dog whose thin will move out of the pocket and "bounce" out to the left even further.  He's avoiding the pressure of the pocket and moving away from the physical threat of the stick. 

Some dogs will fight by doing the twisting and pulling around the side of the helper but they display it as fight by maintaining the grip on the "sweet spot" of the sleeve where the bite bar is and dragging the helper around. 

Why do you think the dog is avoiding the sweet spot on the sleeve where the bite bar is and is instead gripping the loose jute in the elbow and twisting out away from the front of the helper?
 

@BZCZ LOL Just because they sell grips limiters, for dogs not biting high  does not prove not mean  that the dog who does bite high has "thin nerves." That stament is not logical.  Less confident the dog is always biting closer to the tip of the sleeve,.. more confident the dog is biting  higher. That is a natural propensity.   

 As far as the screaming  again you  are wrong. Screaming like a scared  prey  does not teach the dog how to deal with negative threat. Where deep  voice is associated with negative pressure, high pitch voice is associated with submission. Again anybody who trains dogs for real knows that. Sport based training is not in agreement indeed. 

 As far as you criticizing those guys on the video let me  tell you. Between the 2 guys on that video there is  at least 300(!!!) sport and work  titles,  many on national and international level. So for anybody saying that the dog needs better trainers have no clue. 

 Prager Hans

See Prager,

I have no affiliation with them so I can speak the truth and not care.

First dog is jammed on a catch.  Is what it is and Kim and others saw it as well.  I can tell you why it's a jam if you want to know.  It was helper error.

I was a helper for Amigo vom Brinkewig, Ben Kassler Kreutz, and Afra Stamm Walo all who were world team dogs from the United States.I also worked Bastian Koketal who I believe was a vice world champion, Digger vom Schloss Veitenstien, who was vice world champion, Ace of Nike von Bleethof, who was world vice champion, Bruno vom Schwarzen Wappen, Raudi vom Haus Welz all world class dogs.  The second list of dogs, I was not there main helper, I was a helper that they used to work the dogs on someone different than there regular training helper.

I'm sure that there are others who I've forgotten. I can play the name game too.  Doesn't change the facts at all.

You making a blanket statement that more confident dogs always bite higher up on the sleeve is just sad.  I thought you were a better trainer than that.  There are no absolutes in training dogs.  You have to look and see what the dog tells you.  You've quit doing that. 

It's not threat when it is constant yelling, it is desensitization.  If I yell every session pretty soon everyone will quit caring and they will just say, "he always yells, doesn't mean anything".  That's what you are doing is desensitizing the dog to the yell,  It is not a threat any longer.  High pitch scream will surprise and can take the  dog off of sleeve.  That's training, teaching all the possibilities of what can and will happen. 

You completely ignore the video you posted of the dog being fixated on the arms only.  You don't see that as a problem? And the dog letting go of the sleeve and sliding across the floor is normal for a big strong dominant working dog?

For Prager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzUG52xrqaw          This looks better....

Biting into the elbow is not my cup of tea, but for me this dog looks like rushed through the training (ZVV1 ?) without good foundation work.
Amazing for me is that these guys always show the same scene with every dog = biting a guy with a sleeve and a chair in the own club house as proof of hardness...