German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 11

In my culture bloodline is done male to male as Prager explained, I see no fault in that. We originally belong to tribes, and each tribe has few branches then families, think that is the origin of people in modern world too.
Back to our topic, thinking blood, it is natural to have bloodlines, recognize, preserve and take them into consideration in breeding programs is only natural and healthy to keep the gene pool as open as possible.

It is a good thing when big breeders have their own strain within a breed, then breeders can linebreed and also outcross using a dog from another strain. I think in the show line breeders recognize several bloodlines with a distinct stamp of each line, and know this line mixed with that line produce well, not so well or you get disasters.

GSD goes back to several dogs from a variety of geographical areas in Germany, each one of them comes from a certain type of dogs known for certain traits, shape, color etc etc.
So why is the denial that along the road we got several dogs of certain traits? those dogs are the founders of the old bloodlines.
Same goes for the West German, DDR, Czech types, do you deny that there are various types within the GSD?
Crossbreeding with no plan watered down the lines and we have a GSD that does not resemble 100% any founder of the old bloodlines, that is true for most of breeders.
But do we deny that Jiri created ZPS dogs based on those bloodlines and was successful?
Do we deny that Kirschental developed his own line ? And many more breeders.
I think breeding is an art as well as science, not either one. Also there is more than one way to go around it, proof is in the quality and consistency of offsprings one produces. On this thread there are several breeders in conflict about breeding methods, bloodlines, bitch/male effect, though they are all successful or at least doing fine.
 

Ibrahim that is valid point . Breeders should study the origins of the GSD. These dogs have different origins which then reflected in the bloodlines. Here is a picture from Czech border patrol which beautifully shows different type of dogs by regional origin still reflecting in today GSDs.

you can see my detailed description of these dogs here: 

http://www.alpinek9forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=918&hilit

Even a mule bred to a donkey produces another mule. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12260255

 

A gsd bred to another gsd produces another gsd. The genes are so mixed up after fifty years that the genetics of parents of dogs from 25 generations ago are indistinguishable ( cannot be singled out) from the contemporary descendants' genetics. Producing 'types' is all about selection.

The lines I see being discussed, in my opinion, were formed mainly because of geographic and political isolation and partially due to a certain breeding plan. Years ago you were also allowed to line breed much closer than we are today, allowing for a more direct passing of traits and characteristics. Today, there are definitely traits that we can generalize for certain lines, but I think it’s ridiculous to connect those traits to a single dog 20+ generations back.

Let’s be objective instead of repeating what has been told to us and bowing down to anyone that has been in the game for longer than us as if they were some sort of breeding god. Time and time again the various presidents of the SV get hammered for what they’ve allowed/compelled to happen, but when someone we agree with has done something very similar we immortalize them as if they are something special? All a matter of perspective.

Hektor being reintroduced to Czech lines through Javir? I’m never going to buy that, 105 years separating the two dogs…

The reason as a breeder you see consistency in a line is that you CHOOSE to breed to dogs that you prefer and show the same traits you’d like to see in your puppies. Very little to do with dogs 20+ generations back, and more to do with the two dogs you’re sticking together and the four dogs behind them that were stuck together. Prefer high aggression? Probably going to go with a stud that shows that. Prefer high prey? Probably going to go wit ha stud that shows that. More than likely the people making the breeding decisions 2-5 generations behind your chosen breeding are thinking the same way and some knowledge of them will probably guide you in your decision to breed the dogs you’ve decided to breed. Claiming your breeding decision is based off of the “experience” you have and the knowledge you have of dogs that were born before you were born sounds more like a marketing tactic and a way to sway consumers when you can’t actually separate yourself and your breeding program from the rest of the pack with the dogs you’re currently working/breeding because they’re not competitive when put up head to head against their contemporaries.

I agree with this

 

"Producing 'types' is all about selection."

 

You can have two different breeders breeding from stock similar in bloodlines or even identical (siblings) but based on the dogs they have selected to breed, what each produces could and will most likely be totally different.

example: One breeder selects the best pup from the litter confident, fearless, eager, etc...

The other breeder isn't quite sure what they're looking for or uses their heart more than their head and now has the pup that's clingy, a little nervy and too dependant.

Now both breeders select males from a litter with the same sire and dam the same way. Once old enough these dogs are mated to each other.

Although each breeder is breeding identical bloodlines they're ending up with something completely different. Now do this for 3 generations or more, eventually the dogs of identical bloodlines will be totally different from each other....

 

Like begets like.......................

 

 

Yes!

The reason as a breeder you see consistency in a line is that you CHOOSE to breed to dogs that you prefer and show the same traits you’d like to see in your puppies. Very little to do with dogs 20+ generations back, and more to do with the two dogs you’re sticking together and the four dogs behind them that were stuck together.

Great picture Prager.
Excellent post Bavarian Wagon, Joanro and vtgsd

We should hardly be surprised if the sort of regional
populations described by Hans' photo resulted in
variations in type : go back to the very origins of the
GSD and equally varying "types" of German sheepdog
were brought together, from Thuringia, Frankonia,
Wurttemberg ...
The genes - however far back, they tend not to get 'lost'
entirely - are still in there for colours, coat type, etc etc,
so no reason to suppose the ones for temperament and
drives can't be brought out too, from no matter how long
ago.

@Joan: TY for the link to that very interesting article on
equine hybrids.

@huntmutter. Yes you can look at dogs today and tell what was their regional foundtion. People interested in this and really all breeders of any consequence would do themselves a favor if they would reed max v Stephanitz's book.: The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture.

@hund. 'The genes - however far back, they tend not to get 'lost'
entirely - are still in there for colours, coat type, etc etc,
so no reason to suppose the ones for temperament and
drives can't be brought out too, from no matter how long
ago.'

^^^That is what a 'breed' is...as opposed to a mongrel. One can make the very same statement of every 'breed' of dog and it would be accurate.


Yes, the genes are there or else there would not be a 'breed'. However, singling out specific genes of singular, specific dogs from so many years ago is not possible.

I'm not arguing that it is that specific.