German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 12

Bawarian Wagon of course I firmly believe you are very wrong. You can not get something from nothing. Thus genes of a dog from past are basically same genes in the dog today. And you to get personal and to discard and disparage accomplishments of extremely successfully breeders using male blood lines to produce exceptional breeding program is quite telling. Since we started to get little personal let me say this. On top of it you obviously do not know enough about breeding in male lines to criticize it. I am not trying to put you down I am just saying it because it is obvious from what you are saying. I will say that when I have learned about breeding in male lines I too was very suspicious and had similar arguments to yours, but when I looked into it and used it in practice and study past breedings using the breeding in lines I came to firm conclusion of the validity of the system. I suggest that instead wasting time here typing , you and others look into it you do the same as I have - learn about it and you may be surprised. I really do not need to defend the system to people who do not care or do not want to know it. It is a free world I am just putting it out there to people with open mind who want to know more about it. I am in dogs 49 years and did some breeding and so on and I'll tell to people who care that learning about breeding using male lines is probably the most important thing any serious breeders should learn about and hopefully will use.
Jiri thinks that I am idiot to share this with people, but to me it is about the GSD. He says do not tell them what we do - let them stew in their own ignorance. But I love the breed too much and IMO the single most important reason why US breeding compared to Europe is mediocre even if done by serious and well intentioned breeders they fail to produce consistent quality in a long run and they always need to come back to get more dogs from Europe because people in US are putting together nice dog with another nice dog and think that this is all they need to do. After all 2 nice dogs ought to produce more nice dogs. Right? Not so. When I look at people selling their pups and look at such dog's peds that is what I see. Type breeding is the most obvious but most ignorant system to breed dogs and I guarantee you it will inevitably fragment the consistency of what breeder produces and the consistency and quality is going to go down in 3-5 generations if not sooner. On top of it the most of the type breeding is done by looking only at dogs in front of the breeder because the knowledge of the past dogs is lacking. But when you look at breeding pair all you see is phenotype. But we need to know as much about genetype as possible - phenotype is very deceiving. In order to see the genotype the breeder needs to look into the past dogs which expressed higher variety of genes, then if they just look at t the breeding pair - which is what most do. And to look at the bloodline is the ultimate look into the past.

@hund- 

My copy of The Germanshepherd Dog by Cpt Stephanitz.

A friend went to England and picked it up for me while at Westminster show.

That was in 1999. 175 pounds...

 

You can get it on Amazon for around $50 .
http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Dog-Word-Picture/dp/9993280054
or here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Shepherd-Word-Picture/dp/1444654985

 

Of course after you buy it you then need to read it:)!

 

Why buy a book and not read it?
This book was printed in Germany in 1950, so it is more than just a crappy book off amazon.
I read a copy of the book in the 1960s and have read it again over the past decade. Science is still science. I believe in science. History is nice, but does not change science.

Cheers.

Where did you see me get personal? An objective opinion about the way someone thinks about breeding is personal? The only way that's personal is if I attacked YOU about YOUR breeding program. I did no such thing. YOU are the one that got personal and without knowing who I am, or how much I know, stated I don’t know “enough” about something. Sad when someone runs out of facts to prove their point and resorts to petty name calling and unwarranted attacks without anything to back it up. All I did was state that there are much simpler explanations of successful breeding programs than to stretch it to breeding based on dogs from over 100 years ago. The only people I've seen really focus on dogs from 20, 30, 50+ years ago in "their" breeding programs are those that lack the accomplishments in their current line up of breeding dogs. Can't produce anything noteworthy in your own breeding program, can’t title dogs or place them in homes where they might have a chance of going to a regional, national, world event? Well…let’s ride the coattails of everyone that came before me and just name off all the noteworthy names in the pedigrees of the dogs I’m breeding. Let’s discuss dogs that we’ve never seen, never worked, and are so long gone that even our grandparents wouldn’t have had the chance to see them. Make sense. Let’s ignore all of human nature and the proven inefficiencies of spoken word and history.

Don’t worry about it Hans…it’s typical behavior of the majority of GSD breeders. Discounting any new idea, and throwing around names that no one has ever heard of in order to sound smarter than the rest. You’re not the first person or the last to use these tactics to try to discredit others and try to gain some sort of respect for yourself. I prefer to listen to those that prove it on the field, not those that need the internet to make them feel relevant.

It’s also extremely difficult to respect someone’s opinion that doesn’t know how to spell or use correct grammar. Especially when using a medium that allows them to review such errors. - I'm not trying to put you down I'm just saying it because it's obvious from what you are saying. ;)

Ibrahim: Back to our topic, thinking blood, it is natural to have bloodlines, recognize, preserve and take them into consideration in breeding programs is only natural and healthy to keep the gene pool as open as possible.

If only. In the US we received many very good DDR dogs. Most every breeder who received them, immediately slaughtered the line. Re engineering is great but only if the outcome is better then the engineered.


Ibrahim: I think breeding is an art as well as science, not either one. Also there is more than one way to go around it, proof is in the quality and consistency of offsprings one produces.

I think people who apply both would agree with you whole heartedly, the flack would come from scientists & mathematicians, I would guess.

Many very good questions asked Ibrahim, it appears nothing but crickets from those who bloodlines offend. Solid post.

 

PS: BW I think you just put on a clinic in ad hominem.       

By the way…for those that want to take backhanded shots at the people that seem to be “against bloodlines” aren’t understanding correctly what people are saying. Yes…there are bloodlines, there are definitely more male lines “overall” than female lines. The simplest way to say it is that male lines cross breeding programs, female lines tend to be kept by a single breeder. The idea that people are rejecting is the MACRO thought process of the bloodlines stemming from dogs generations ago and how those affect current breeding plans and successes/failures. Most successful breeders still think on a very MICRO level and compare the dogs closer up in the pedigree than those generations and generations back.

Javir was brought up as a recent dog who comes from the Hektor bloodline…very few people think that way. Hektor is in basically ALL GSDs today. How is Javir the only one that someone decided to pick as the one that represents him best? Makes no sense when you consider the person making that claim only knows about Hektor from a heavily biased/subjective text. IMO…Javir himself has had enough progeny to have his own line and even then has Aly, and therefore Troll, and therefore Fero in his pedigree, so why isn’t anything he produces just a the bloodline of any of those dogs? Or are we just assuming that all those dogs also all go back to Hektor and so that’s the bloodline being bred? In which case…not a very rare bloodline as it was sold in that post. All 5 of the dogs currently in my home have Fero, Troll, and Aly. One of them is a Javir great-grandson while others are related through other progeny of Aly… The line was called “balnd” I’m assuming that was supposed to mean bland? Interesting how some of the major dogs of the past two decades are being called bland and “neglected” when they’re probably right there in most pedigrees.

A little closer up and a more prevalent dog today (close to Javir) is Tom. Tom produced Ellute. Ellute also has Troll and therefore Fero but this time through Yoschy instead of Aly. Wouldn’t then Ellute’s progeny also be a reflection of Hektor’s bloodline? Why is Javir the one that was chosen and not Hektor? Those dogs appear in those pedigrees an equal amount of times...yet one is more of a reflection of Hektor than another?

It’s easy to spin breeding into this “I have all the experience and know everything” mess. But it’s so simple to punch holes in the logic of the people that think knowing a 30 generation pedigree makes them smarter than everyone else. Clear to see why these same people usually resort to the “I know more than you so HA!” argument though. Logic escapes them.

And yes Gigante...that was my point...just stating "I'm not trying to call you a _____ but you're a _____" doesn't excuse someone from the name calling. I've got nothing against Hans, I don't know him personally, and don't care to. But to state that I made some sort of personal attack prior to the post where I was the one being discredited without him knowing me at all, is comical.

Gigante said :"........it is natural to have bloodlines, recognize, preserve and take them into consideration in breeding programs is only natural and healthy to keep the gene pool as open as possible. If only. In the US we received many very good DDR dogs. Most every breeder who received them, immediately slaughtered the line. Re engineering is great but only if the outcome is better then the engineered."

 

Hans: The  quality progeny is a  result of a fragile balancing act of knowledgeable breeders.  These lines are not  that sturdy. If it would be so anybody  could do it.  All knowledge needs to be applied to make them to be so. The so called "new ideas" are usually not so new  and are only new to the  novices and are  akin to fixing crystal chandelier with jack hammer.   The dogs from DDR and z Pohranicni straze and what I now call Old Style Czech lines which were derived from DDR lines are result of such fragile balancing act of knowledge. It pains me to see these great lines being destroyed and then the creators and preservers and their techniques of  male line breeding  and lines  which created them are being diminished and personally attacked by people ignorant of such breeding techniques.

 Prager Hans 

 P.S. Gigante I know and have trained some of your dogs  and they are superb.