Breeders using Fero free dogs - Page 6

gekswag03, I don't think ANYONE would even suggest that there's anything wrong with the breeding behind your pup--and nobody is even saying there is anything wrong with having Fero multiple upon multiple times in a pedigree.  Why does it seem to bother folks so much when somebody inquires about breedings that do NOT show any influence of a given dog [let's call him "Rover]"? Why automatically assume that such an inquiry is implying that there's something bad about Rover, solely because someone is looking for a family line that doesn't have him or her?  It's just as possible that the person making the inquiry has a line of dogs that do not include whatever dog they are referencing, and they want to maintain their line as such. Perhaps they found that their "Rover"-free lines don't mesh well with Rover or his descendants, that such a blend has produced offspring that were of lesser quality than what Rover produced with most other lines AND were also of lesser quality than what their own line had produced with non-Rover lines, so they've learned there's no point in repeating the mispairing. Doesn't mean there's ANYTHING wrong with Rover or his offspring, any more than it means there's something wrong with the inquirer's own Rover-free line.

Once a breed is established, there's a lot to be said for having multiple distinct family lines remaining viable and accessible concurrently. For one thing, it is in the best genetic interest of the breed overall, if a breeder intends to 'color inside the lines' and adhere to the restrictions most breed registries and/or kennel clubs set for purebred dogs, since those rules don't allow for the use of outcross to other breeds or to dog which are not registered with an organization recognized by that registry or kennel club--so a line that lacks a single particular dog can be as close to an 'outcross' option as one might get.

 

Hexe,
I was justy using my pup as an example. And then responding to another post. I am still new and learning which is why i am curious. Earlier, someone asked why not use Fero, what was trying to be avoided and the answer was "FERO"
So, I am just trying to figure out why. What was seen negative in him. I used my pup since i know someone was speaking of line-breeding, that's all. LOL i didn't take it as any type of bad about my pup, per say. 

As I learn more, better opinions are formed and I can make better judgments in the future. So i am trying to see what everyone has is. Like, is it just genetic diversity or something specific they don't like about it. 

Seriously you like nothing from the Fero line?? Working ability, conformation, drives. Look no further than the famous J-Litter, this is Fero. Troll, Yoschy, Rocky von der Zingelgarten, Aly vom Vondersteinwald, Quaste von Ankenrutt and you can go on and on.

I didn't say that. I said I don't like *everything* from Fero. I have Yoschy granddaughter lying next to me right now--she'll turn 15 in July. She's a fantastic dog--there's a LOT I like about her that came from Fero. She's 55 lbs and 22" tall--that came from her grandfather Yoschy too. (Which probably came from Yoschy's mom, not Yoschy's fatherline.) I bred her to a Fero son, Bodo v Tiekerhook. Super litter--3 out of 4 became certified SAR dogs. One has died at age 9 from hemangio. I know a number of Fero children and grandchildren who have died from hemangiosarcoma. Do I think there's a definite link? --no. Do I think it's possible? --yes.

I've had to look far and wide to find stud dogs I like to breed her daughters to--I don't want to breed my 22.5"/59 lb female (out of a 90 lb male) to a dog with Yoschy--I think there's a good chance I'll get undersized females. That is just one, small concern that I have.

Christine,
I understand exactly what you are saying and agree completely.  I think Fero, Troll, Yoschy and Nick were great producing dogs and love many of the dogs they have produced.  I also think too much of Fero or Yoschy in a pedigree can be problematic.  I can post a pedigree that has Fero at least 17 times in 8 generations and Yoschy at least 6 in 7 generations.  Yoshy is there 5 x in 5 generations and the sire is there in 2 generations as this is a 1-2 breeding.  The pedigree naturally also has Nick, Timmy, Troll, etc many times.  I think that may be too much, IMHO.  Especially when the sire and dam have no health clearances, working titles, show ratings, breed survey or OFA that I am aware of.  

I do like Fero, Troll, Timmy, Nick, Yoschy just not to excess.

JMO

Christine,
I had to put my Yoschy granddaughter down in July, she was just over 13 years old.  I loved that dog, fantastic temperament, high drive, unbelievable tracking dog, excellent grips.  But, boy would she scream, the only drawback to that dog.  It didn't bother me as much as it did other people and there was no changing it or stopping it.  It was just how she was.  My female was about 65lbs, not big but stocky.  Yoschy was not the biggest dog and size was a concern.

in GSD i don't know of any examples but in mali's you have arco van de duvetorre 1-2 inbred on stoned van de duvetorre and used many times as a stud in belgian NVBK under the name marco, produced several great sons and daughters so unfertille i don't think so
inbreeding 1-2 can be great, but for sure you need to be 100% sure of the dog you are inbreeding so close, health,drives,clearheaded etc already proven in his offspring on diffrent bloodlines
in GSD these day's i wouldn't know a dog who you can be certain enough to go this close on without risking problems in 2-3 generation with hips/elbows certainly with all spine issues in the breed and the lack of testing within SV rules i wouldn't recommend it 3-3 is the closed i would go myself these day's and even then only if i saw the pics of hips-elbows and spine myself.

Simply put, if there is as open a genetic platform as is possible within a Breed [the capital B referencing the restrictions that are inherent to such a designation], then any one person can always breed tighter within the lines here and there, with no marked damage to the size of that platform ; but once that entire platform contracts because EVERYONE has been breeding tighter and tighter, there's no way to expand the size of the base again while still coloring inside the lines that comprise having a Breed.

I'm with Christine--and the OP--the broader the pool, while still staying within the Breed itself, the better. I don't think GSD breeders want to find themselves in a position someday where they HAVE to outcross to an entirely different breed of dog or a 'landrace' dog because they've unwittingly established a dominant genetic glitch that causes a significant health problem in virtually every specimen of the breed, and can't eliminate it without importing new genetic material into the pool. [Not much on the idea of crossing GSDs with another breed NOW, as some espouse doing, and permitting the offspring several generations down from such crossing to be registered back as GSDs, however. Even though that is commonly done with livestock breeds, with there being varying degrees of 'purity' that can be registered with the ultimate level being '100% purebred', because at the end of the day, that is breeding for food on the table, not a companion by your side].

Christine,

Thx, now I can get a better understanding of what you are referring to . I have never heard anything about size so that would be a concern for me too, if i was breeding. 
I am looking to get a female once my pup is about 14/15months. But an older female, maybe 9 months or a little older. So it helps to learn as much as I can.

Just a comment on the pre potency of Fero; my Beckett has Fero through Timmy back 6 generations.... Beckett could be Timmy's twin from pictures & videos...& OMG, he is a screamer!!
In every other way (except for his right hip), he is wonderful. But if you didn't know this dog, you'd think someone was killing him with a dull knife whenever he gets left behind. And nothing stops it or changes it. 
My Beckett only has Fero back there once, I couldn't imagine having more than that....it's like dynamite!
jackie harris

To be fair, though, not all screaming in GSDs can be laid on Fero's doorstep...my show line bitch hasn't a drop of Fero in her, but she sure can scream like one when she's excited.  Hell, my rescue male is unlikely to have any Fero in him, either--he's probably completely rural American GSD 'farm dog' lines, but he's also a screamer when frustrated.  Here is not a good place to visit if you are sound-sensitive...or have a hangover.