Who Owns or Has owned a WL X SL Cross .. facts not opinions - Page 7

As long as breeders care about working ability, health, and standard, I don´t care about working- or showline.
A dog is always the product of its parents/genes.
The product of a good/bad workingline combination is not better than the combination of a good/bad working/showline or showline/showline combination. You need good dogs for breeding, no matter which lines.

I don´t believe, that good showline dogs are the result of "odd mutations" - they are the result of gene-combinations of their ancestors, nor more, not less.
To the same time good looking workinglines according to the standard are the result of their ancestors, too.

( Only a sidenote: Even if you believe in a spontanous mutation because you don´t believe in showlines "able to work", or workinglines able to "look good", this mutation is genetically present, it won´t vanish because " it can´t be true ..." )

In case this is true ( and it must be true according to science and genetics ) there is no difference between an outcross within one line and a WL/SL cross.
You won´t get the same results as within a good linebreeding, but the chance to get some good dogs, better than the parents, is not that bad... and some of the pups will carry the genes.

At that point (2. generation) it becomes interesting. Does the breeder care about working ability/health/standard, or is the breeder mainly interested in

1. conformation   ( the average showline breeder )
2. working ability ( the average workingline breeder ) ?

I still believe in the "universal" German Shepherd dog ...

I still believe in universal dog also, that's why I don't champion show lines or working lines. 

Btw, Ibrahim, there are still some select breeders that require good suspicion and discernment as important in their breeding programs. These dogs usually don't win in the show ring or the sport field....but they are often very strong in versatility.

sorry what is the goal here again?

 

to make better working dogs by crossing them to showlines then breeding the best of them (after rigorous testing no less) to pure SL or WL to do what exactly??

 

or is this project to make better SL dogs to...???

 

so confused and what you end up with apparently is a bunch of data equivalent to white noise that you can cherry-pick from to prove what again?

 

or is this just a thread for people to excercise their crreative writing skills of how the best personal dogs they ever had were SL X WL while not once ever supplying anything more than personal anecdotes in written form.

 

Can only speak for my own cross but the goal was healthy dogs, correct size (not these massive GSDs that seem so popular, huge rottweiler heads, very "loose", etc), athletic dogs with drive and temperament to train and work but the ability to be happy, active pets that can settle. My cross is not my "heart dog" (that would be my mutt), nor is he my best GSD ever but as far as anecdotes go, I'm a big fan of put up or shut up. You think a dog is something else...then prove it. The dog earned the highest rating possible from an SV judge, his hips, elbows, and spine prelimed beautifully, he is DM clear by parentage, he is already competing and titled in sports (and not the only in his litter), and I enjoy owning him and having him in the house. I like his size, athleticism, drive, and he has a nice balance of suspicion along with being quite aloof/neutral to normal strangers (he's growing into this, was much more outgoing as a puppy). My next dog probably will not be a SL/WL cross but it probably won't even be a GSD.

I think personal anecdotes as far as what health certificates a dog has, what they have earned towards a breed survey, what work they are actually doing, and what titles they have earned go quite a long way in evaluating success!

got it, the SL X WL is to improve the working ability of working line dogs by improving their inferior structure which can only be obtained from the obviously superior show line dogs which are well proven in general to be of correct conformation, more athletic, more endurance, better health, better nerve and drives etc than what could be found by selective breeding of worlking line dogs, makes perfect sense.

 

i hope the SL's don't suffer because of all this inferior worlking line genetics in the mix.

 

suprised nobody stumbled across this concept earlier.

hopefully the breeder that is doing these crosses keeps back a pup or two to evaluate the reason for the breeding, and does keep track of the dogs they've produced/ health and achievements.... it should be a given if they have a vision and goals for their program. 

Yes, vk :   "Universal GSD";  "golden middle";  the GSD Max originally

intended.

NOT two or more separate breeds, divided by largely unrealistic

concepts of which is 'better' than the other(s).

The search for this golden middle leads no where but to the pet dead end.

Some initial crosses can be decent (usually not).  However they are useless for breeding as they carry 50% genetic weakness that will crop up in preceding generations.

Hard enough to find excellent working lines without further diluting the gene pool.

I wonder were the impression was born that there are any lack of WLs with erect ears, proper coat and full dentition?  Mysterious..

 

The GSDs downfall is his looks, they have always played a role in breeding decisions and always will. They also attract the wrong people to breed these dogs.

 

Luckily for me I have moved to the darkside..like many converts I wonder why I took so long.  There is just no comparison between a dog with genetics that have been purpose bred for one thing, were less then stellar specimens were generally not used and inferior quality was culled.

My 60 pound dog feels like he is 120lbs on the sleeve, he gives 100% to everything he does and is always ready to work. Better yet he isnt an idiot in the house either.

 

"They also attract the wrong people to breed these dogs."

 

x 10

VK4gsd and Haz .. how many WL X SL do you own or have you owned .. personally .. not he said and she said??  The OP was facts not opinions .. that goes for all posting??  The concept of "genetic dilution" or "genetic concentration" has no validity .. The GSD was inbred from the beginning.  Likewise the concept of hybridization between WL X SL is invalid.  Both SL and WL are inbred lines by definition .. fact not opinion from a board certified genetic counselor.

I own currently a cross Sg Lionel van't struweel. Who is more show than work now but in the 50% range was the litter that produced lubeck von der mahler meister! Now that's what I call genetic weakness,

My previous female was from Thomas gard last male and was fabulous, vom haus gard? As in nick heilgenbosch 's mothers breeder?