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by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
I am about to post a seris of contacts. This is from a man that has a wealth of past experience with GSD`s and the breeding of and showing of, and is now watching how things are unfolding and wondering why the Kennel Club are not acting upon health issues... therefore he decided to email them and ask ! Simple enough ? I`d say so - and he is so staggered by the replies he felt you would all like to read them, but doesnt use the pdb so has sent them to me.
If this gentleman is in agreement to being named, I will do so, but at present he hasnt given permission for that, but he has given me permission to put these on the database...... Oh hum, the progressive, UK KC at their best it seems. Mr Bill Lambert, who has answered the majority of this mans emails is a breeder himself, and rated very highly in my estimation .
How Sad. Mo.
If this gentleman is in agreement to being named, I will do so, but at present he hasnt given permission for that, but he has given me permission to put these on the database...... Oh hum, the progressive, UK KC at their best it seems. Mr Bill Lambert, who has answered the majority of this mans emails is a breeder himself, and rated very highly in my estimation .
How Sad. Mo.
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
First contact to the KC....
Location:
plymouth
Telephone:
Message:
Recently i emailed you asking WHY you have allowed a GSD with hip score
of 50 to gain the title of Champion?? Surely this is NOT promoting what
is best in the breed when a CH CANT even get a Breed Survey class 1.
With everything thats going on between KC and GSD clubs you shouldnt
have given the title, the KC are negligent in giving the title. PLEASE
respond to this email
Location:
plymouth
Telephone:
Message:
Recently i emailed you asking WHY you have allowed a GSD with hip score
of 50 to gain the title of Champion?? Surely this is NOT promoting what
is best in the breed when a CH CANT even get a Breed Survey class 1.
With everything thats going on between KC and GSD clubs you shouldnt
have given the title, the KC are negligent in giving the title. PLEASE
respond to this email
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
And the reply
On 2 July 2010 08:19, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Dear
Further to your Email below which has been passed to me for response.
Whilst I can understand that it may seem attractive to refuse to award
top awards to dogs that have not achieved certain health test results
there are much wider issues that have to be taken into account.
The Kennel Club view is that the show ring is the place to deal with
conformational issues that can be assessed and considered at the time of
judging whilst other issues that cannot be seen by the judge should be
dealt with at the time of breeding.
I do not know which dog that you are referring to, but the dogs health
results will be available for all to see on the Kennel Club website
providing the opportunity for breeders to make an informed choice when
breeding is considered.
As I am sure you are aware It is an unfortunate fact that the mating of
a dog and bitch with low hip scores cannot guarantee that the resulting
litter will be free of HD. There is however, ample evidence which
suggests that consistent use of dogs with low scores in a breeding
programme should lower the incidence of the condition in the population.
To facilitate this, a breed mean score (the average of all the dogs of
that breed that have been scored under the scheme) is calculated for
each breed and the advice issued by BVA to breeders is to use only stock
which score below the breed average.
You may also be aware of the work that is being funded by the Kennel
Club at the animal health trust with estimated breeding values and the
mate select programme. It is hoped that this will provide breeders with
an important tool for selecting breeding animals and provide more
information regarding the likely hip scores in puppies.
Yours sincerely
Kennel Club
The sender of this email has sent you the following information:
On 2 July 2010 08:19, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Dear
Further to your Email below which has been passed to me for response.
Whilst I can understand that it may seem attractive to refuse to award
top awards to dogs that have not achieved certain health test results
there are much wider issues that have to be taken into account.
The Kennel Club view is that the show ring is the place to deal with
conformational issues that can be assessed and considered at the time of
judging whilst other issues that cannot be seen by the judge should be
dealt with at the time of breeding.
I do not know which dog that you are referring to, but the dogs health
results will be available for all to see on the Kennel Club website
providing the opportunity for breeders to make an informed choice when
breeding is considered.
As I am sure you are aware It is an unfortunate fact that the mating of
a dog and bitch with low hip scores cannot guarantee that the resulting
litter will be free of HD. There is however, ample evidence which
suggests that consistent use of dogs with low scores in a breeding
programme should lower the incidence of the condition in the population.
To facilitate this, a breed mean score (the average of all the dogs of
that breed that have been scored under the scheme) is calculated for
each breed and the advice issued by BVA to breeders is to use only stock
which score below the breed average.
You may also be aware of the work that is being funded by the Kennel
Club at the animal health trust with estimated breeding values and the
mate select programme. It is hoped that this will provide breeders with
an important tool for selecting breeding animals and provide more
information regarding the likely hip scores in puppies.
Yours sincerely
Kennel Club
The sender of this email has sent you the following information:
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
so the man asked.....
Dear Bill
I think you have missed the point of my email, the KC have the right to withhold the title if they so wish.With this dog it doesn`t promote the best of the breed which is surely what the KC are about.A dog with such a high score and no breed survey shouldn`t get the CH title.The show ring is not the place due to the "judges" as we know due to the posts on the internet.The dog i`m refering to is Korzwin Randy a GSD but it doesn`t matter which dog it is.If the KC are supposed to promote the BEST of each breed with the title then the dogs should at LEAST have breed survey to get the CH title
Yours not very hopefully
Dear Bill
I think you have missed the point of my email, the KC have the right to withhold the title if they so wish.With this dog it doesn`t promote the best of the breed which is surely what the KC are about.A dog with such a high score and no breed survey shouldn`t get the CH title.The show ring is not the place due to the "judges" as we know due to the posts on the internet.The dog i`m refering to is Korzwin Randy a GSD but it doesn`t matter which dog it is.If the KC are supposed to promote the BEST of each breed with the title then the dogs should at LEAST have breed survey to get the CH title
Yours not very hopefully
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
and the reply came back.......
On 5 July 2010 16:15, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Dear
Having looked at this dogs record I can see that the hip score is arrived at as 3 on one side and 47 on the other.
Hip scores with such an imbalance could suggest that an injury has occurred which would indicate that the high score is
attributed to environmental issues rather than those of a hereditary nature. This is a prime example of why Hip Dysplasia
is a complex issue and all the facts need to be investigated. It would surely seem unfair to penalise an otherwise outstanding dog
on the basis that it once suffered an injury which it is now completely recovered from.
The Kennel Club is current working with a number of GSD breed clubs and should we receive breed wide agreement on a hip score “limit”
We would considering adding this to the reccomendations for Accredited Breeders, however we would want to see widespread adoption
Of the scheme by breed club committees before agreeing tom this.
Yours sincerely
Bill Lambert
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
www.thekennelclub.org.uk
On 5 July 2010 16:15, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Dear
Having looked at this dogs record I can see that the hip score is arrived at as 3 on one side and 47 on the other.
Hip scores with such an imbalance could suggest that an injury has occurred which would indicate that the high score is
attributed to environmental issues rather than those of a hereditary nature. This is a prime example of why Hip Dysplasia
is a complex issue and all the facts need to be investigated. It would surely seem unfair to penalise an otherwise outstanding dog
on the basis that it once suffered an injury which it is now completely recovered from.
The Kennel Club is current working with a number of GSD breed clubs and should we receive breed wide agreement on a hip score “limit”
We would considering adding this to the reccomendations for Accredited Breeders, however we would want to see widespread adoption
Of the scheme by breed club committees before agreeing tom this.
Yours sincerely
Bill Lambert
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
www.thekennelclub.org.uk
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:07
So this man still replied back and said....
Date: 5 July 2010 18:54
Subject: Re: Message from http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk
To: Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk>
Dear Bill
It MIGHT suggest an injury but i think not as we would have heard about it.You are working with "a number" of GSD clubs that signed up to your threats regarding CC`s.The other clubs didn`t sign, the Breed Council along with others use a limit for hips when doing the Breed Survey that you dont seem to like.It takes into account the hip score upto a limit of 20 and 12 on 1 hip if memory serves me right it also takes into account how the dog behaves around other dogs and people in a show environment where there is so much going on and the gun test.How many other breeds dogs have to go through this type of scrutiny to get awarded a Breed Survey?? A dog could still fail the survey if it doesn`t behave itself during the walk around or fail the gun test irrespective of its hip score.My comment is aimed at the fact this dog WONT EVER get a Breed Survey and this should be a pre-requisite of gaining the title of CH surely?
Yours
Date: 5 July 2010 18:54
Subject: Re: Message from http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk
To: Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk>
Dear Bill
It MIGHT suggest an injury but i think not as we would have heard about it.You are working with "a number" of GSD clubs that signed up to your threats regarding CC`s.The other clubs didn`t sign, the Breed Council along with others use a limit for hips when doing the Breed Survey that you dont seem to like.It takes into account the hip score upto a limit of 20 and 12 on 1 hip if memory serves me right it also takes into account how the dog behaves around other dogs and people in a show environment where there is so much going on and the gun test.How many other breeds dogs have to go through this type of scrutiny to get awarded a Breed Survey?? A dog could still fail the survey if it doesn`t behave itself during the walk around or fail the gun test irrespective of its hip score.My comment is aimed at the fact this dog WONT EVER get a Breed Survey and this should be a pre-requisite of gaining the title of CH surely?
Yours
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:07
so the man took another tack and contacted the person that Bill was suggesting with this....
Plymouth
Telephone:
Message:
I have been emailing Bill Lambert about the award of CH status to a dog
with a hip score of 50 & he said to email you about it.My question is
HOW does a dog with a hip score of 50 and will NEVER get a Breed Survey
be a CHAMPION?? surely YOU could have witheld the title due to health
issues,this dog is not promoting the BEST of the GSD breed.I look
forward to your reply
Receive information by POST:
Receive information by EMAIL:
Plymouth
Telephone:
Message:
I have been emailing Bill Lambert about the award of CH status to a dog
with a hip score of 50 & he said to email you about it.My question is
HOW does a dog with a hip score of 50 and will NEVER get a Breed Survey
be a CHAMPION?? surely YOU could have witheld the title due to health
issues,this dog is not promoting the BEST of the GSD breed.I look
forward to your reply
Receive information by POST:
Receive information by EMAIL:
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:07
and lo and behold back came this ......
Dear
I have enquired about this as I have a limited amount of knowledge
regarding a dog's hip score. It has been suggested that although this is
a high score and would suggest some health issue with the dog's hips it
may not be picked up by the judge on the day of the show if the dog
appeared to move well in the ring. Judges generally don't have
veterinary knowledge and therefore may not have been aware of such a
problem if the dog had been visible mobile.
Regards
Jason Winnington
Breed Shows Team
Canine Activities Department
Dear
I have enquired about this as I have a limited amount of knowledge
regarding a dog's hip score. It has been suggested that although this is
a high score and would suggest some health issue with the dog's hips it
may not be picked up by the judge on the day of the show if the dog
appeared to move well in the ring. Judges generally don't have
veterinary knowledge and therefore may not have been aware of such a
problem if the dog had been visible mobile.
Regards
Jason Winnington
Breed Shows Team
Canine Activities Department
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:07
And what they have all missed out to observe at the Kennel Club, is that if it is the lovely Champion dog that I now think it is - his owner has NEVER used him and has said that they will NEVER use him.
How simple would it have been for the KC to answer in that manner i.e. that this particular dog had never been used anyways....- instead, they have gone down the line of showing their distinct lack of concern in general for this thing happening and the owner not being so caring and knowleagable. Mo.
How simple would it have been for the KC to answer in that manner i.e. that this particular dog had never been used anyways....- instead, they have gone down the line of showing their distinct lack of concern in general for this thing happening and the owner not being so caring and knowleagable. Mo.
by Skippy on 07 July 2010 - 17:07
BUMP
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