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by ChrissiDrake on 10 July 2010 - 10:07
I think anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows exactly why some breeders travel endless miles to go to the infamous Mike Guilliard for many reasons , and not because he is a good veterinarian !.
by Videx on 10 July 2010 - 11:07
Such rubbish is written by idiots and liars on this database.
by t ruthurts on 10 July 2010 - 11:07
Eileen It was good of you to put on information about the regional shows that are to be held under wusv rules.
Requirements for adult class UK BREED SURVEY. In order to attain a UK Breed Survey class 1 hips should not score more than 20 with no more than 12 on any one hip.
Ponway Ozales at Allsala BVA hip score 12/20 total 32. Breed survey class 1-( because of size) I believe you did not disclose his BVA hip score at time of Breed Survey as he had a German A Stamp N-Z.
If rumors are true this dog was later put to sleep after several biting incidents so one must also question Character/Temperament test carried out at time of survey. Just as a matter if interest this dog was also sired by Videx Virus.
The above is just one example of why a UK Breed Survey is not worth the paper it's written on.
T Ruthurts
Requirements for adult class UK BREED SURVEY. In order to attain a UK Breed Survey class 1 hips should not score more than 20 with no more than 12 on any one hip.
Ponway Ozales at Allsala BVA hip score 12/20 total 32. Breed survey class 1-( because of size) I believe you did not disclose his BVA hip score at time of Breed Survey as he had a German A Stamp N-Z.
If rumors are true this dog was later put to sleep after several biting incidents so one must also question Character/Temperament test carried out at time of survey. Just as a matter if interest this dog was also sired by Videx Virus.
The above is just one example of why a UK Breed Survey is not worth the paper it's written on.
T Ruthurts
by Videx on 10 July 2010 - 11:07
The Kennel Club SIMPLY need to make it a CONDITION OF ENTRY for all KC shows that NO dog can enter with a hip score higher than a total of 20 with no side being higher than 12.
SIMPLE - STRAIGHTFORWARD - A CAN DO - SO WHY DON'T THE KC DO IT?
The JUDGE doesn't have to check anything - the steward doesn't have to check anything.
IF a dog is found to have been entered in breach of such a RULE - automatic disqualification of ALL awards and the owner disciplined by the Kennel Club.
NO COST TO ANYONE if they reported such a breach of KC Rules.
IT CERTAINLY HELPS TO POINT OUT WHAT SHOULD OBVIOUSLY BE DONE BY THE KENNEL CLUB.
I certainly think it helps to criticise the Kennel Club for "complacency" and their inept attitude to Health & Welfare.
Report Abusive
SIMPLE - STRAIGHTFORWARD - A CAN DO - SO WHY DON'T THE KC DO IT?
The JUDGE doesn't have to check anything - the steward doesn't have to check anything.
IF a dog is found to have been entered in breach of such a RULE - automatic disqualification of ALL awards and the owner disciplined by the Kennel Club.
NO COST TO ANYONE if they reported such a breach of KC Rules.
IT CERTAINLY HELPS TO POINT OUT WHAT SHOULD OBVIOUSLY BE DONE BY THE KENNEL CLUB.
I certainly think it helps to criticise the Kennel Club for "complacency" and their inept attitude to Health & Welfare.
Report Abusive
by Videx on 10 July 2010 - 11:07
The Kennel Club turn a "blind eye" to all of these very serious issues at CRUFTS
CRUFTS the KC dog show
Lest we forget.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USZxR41GQR4
The Kennel Club is a disgrace when it comes to meaningful policies for pedigree dog
"HEALTH & WELFARE"
They "SPIN" out excuses that are so uncaring.
ALL Judges MUST totally disregard anything NOT visible in the Show Ring
While the Kennel Club
EXCLUDE
hip scores and other serious health screening test results
from their KC Show ENTRY CONDITIONS
A DISGRACE
by Aileen Ann Mathieson on 10 July 2010 - 11:07
TO T. RUTHURTS
Finally, someone who wants to know the truth about REEF the dog you mention in your post, ALBEIT YOU ARE ANONYMOUS - WELL HERE IT IS - it is up to you and the hundreds of others to believe it or NOT - your choice.
Reef was bought as a 7 week puppy from the Ponway Kennels near Taunton.
He was X-rayed both for BVA HIPS AND SV HIPS on the SAME DAY (not as many have stated at 2 different dates and times) and this can be proved quite easily - not that this is now necessary as he is no longer with us.
His BVA hips came back as you say and we waited a further 5 months to receive his SV result which was as you said NZ - I can tell you unreservedly that we were totally shocked he even passed his SV hips - NZ is Permissible for Breeding Germany taking into account his pedigree etc - I am sure that is you know so much about him you will have checked the SV rules too.
From being a puppy until a few months before we had to make the decision to put him to sleep his character was flawless and all you need to do is ask the people who knew him at shows - he played with children at shows, sat and played with other GSDs and other breeeds with no problems at all. So until the age of 2.5/3 years his character and temperament were not in question. When he was surveyed his character was passed as correct at that time.
AND THE BIT YOU ALL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT - yes we put him in for Survey under the EITHER OR CHOICE that was allowed at that time and as far as I am aware is still allowed. Putting him for survey knowing he failed his BVA Hips proved something did it not - THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN EITHER OR CHOICE with Surveys, it should be one or the other or BOTH AS PASSES - if you get my drift. However, do you really believe that an A Stamp in Germany means a pass in UK - NO IT DOES NOT and it has been proved over and over again. Our dog was simply a TEST CASE to prove that the systems are not compatible with each other.
Our opinion is that if you have a BVA RESULT and an SV RESULT they must both be passes to enter a Survey. If you fail either one or the other you should not be allowed to Survey that dog/bitch.
The only way to cure this ongoing problem is for a rule to be laid down that ALL DOGS SURVEYED IN UK MUST HAVE A UK BVA SCORE - THIS MEANS THAT ALL IMPORTS TO THIS COUNTRY MUST UNDERGO UK HIP SCORING TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT A FAIL IN THIS COUNTRY - AS HAS HAPPENED COUNTLESS TIMES TO PEOPLE WHO IMPORT DOGS INTO THIS COUNTRY - then at least we would know they have passed both tests in both countries. Obviously, there are fors and againsts on both sides of this debate.
REGARDING THE TEMPERAMENT OF OUR DECEASED DOG -
As said above he had no problem until the age of 2.5 years, when his character changed VERY SLOWLy over a period of months - initially not noticed by us or anyone who knew him, it is only in retrospect that you realise changes were happening.
contd
Finally, someone who wants to know the truth about REEF the dog you mention in your post, ALBEIT YOU ARE ANONYMOUS - WELL HERE IT IS - it is up to you and the hundreds of others to believe it or NOT - your choice.
Reef was bought as a 7 week puppy from the Ponway Kennels near Taunton.
He was X-rayed both for BVA HIPS AND SV HIPS on the SAME DAY (not as many have stated at 2 different dates and times) and this can be proved quite easily - not that this is now necessary as he is no longer with us.
His BVA hips came back as you say and we waited a further 5 months to receive his SV result which was as you said NZ - I can tell you unreservedly that we were totally shocked he even passed his SV hips - NZ is Permissible for Breeding Germany taking into account his pedigree etc - I am sure that is you know so much about him you will have checked the SV rules too.
From being a puppy until a few months before we had to make the decision to put him to sleep his character was flawless and all you need to do is ask the people who knew him at shows - he played with children at shows, sat and played with other GSDs and other breeeds with no problems at all. So until the age of 2.5/3 years his character and temperament were not in question. When he was surveyed his character was passed as correct at that time.
AND THE BIT YOU ALL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT - yes we put him in for Survey under the EITHER OR CHOICE that was allowed at that time and as far as I am aware is still allowed. Putting him for survey knowing he failed his BVA Hips proved something did it not - THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN EITHER OR CHOICE with Surveys, it should be one or the other or BOTH AS PASSES - if you get my drift. However, do you really believe that an A Stamp in Germany means a pass in UK - NO IT DOES NOT and it has been proved over and over again. Our dog was simply a TEST CASE to prove that the systems are not compatible with each other.
Our opinion is that if you have a BVA RESULT and an SV RESULT they must both be passes to enter a Survey. If you fail either one or the other you should not be allowed to Survey that dog/bitch.
The only way to cure this ongoing problem is for a rule to be laid down that ALL DOGS SURVEYED IN UK MUST HAVE A UK BVA SCORE - THIS MEANS THAT ALL IMPORTS TO THIS COUNTRY MUST UNDERGO UK HIP SCORING TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT A FAIL IN THIS COUNTRY - AS HAS HAPPENED COUNTLESS TIMES TO PEOPLE WHO IMPORT DOGS INTO THIS COUNTRY - then at least we would know they have passed both tests in both countries. Obviously, there are fors and againsts on both sides of this debate.
REGARDING THE TEMPERAMENT OF OUR DECEASED DOG -
As said above he had no problem until the age of 2.5 years, when his character changed VERY SLOWLy over a period of months - initially not noticed by us or anyone who knew him, it is only in retrospect that you realise changes were happening.
contd
by t ruthurts on 10 July 2010 - 12:07
Why do people keep blaming the Kennel club for everything that is wrong in Pedigree dogs. The Kennel Club is merely a Registration Society. Health issue are largely due to the breeding practices of Breeders. Breeders should have their own standards and morals and should stick to them not move the goalposts to suit themselves.
Yes in an ideal world I would like to see Health test as a requirement for show entry but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where the people shouting the loudest are usually the ones breaking the rules.
T. Ruthurts
Yes in an ideal world I would like to see Health test as a requirement for show entry but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where the people shouting the loudest are usually the ones breaking the rules.
T. Ruthurts
by Aileen Ann Mathieson on 10 July 2010 - 12:07
contd
At an Open Show after being in the ring I stood at the ring with a longstanding friend, who had know this dog from being a baby and had no issues with him. She was actually at my side and had been for a few minutes when he, from a lying start, flew at her - no one was more shocked than I was as I had to deal with this and to say my heart just about stopped was no joke. HE DID NOT BITE HER, although he may have intended to - I managed to pull him back and struggled to hold him until my husband came out of the ring to help me - I do have muscle disease and for the life of me could not get him to down. I was totally devastated by this incident because of the what COULD HAVE HAPPENED to our friend and the fact that Jim and I have a no bit policy unless the dog is defening our or our families lives. I knew what may have to happen.
We took him home and made a few phone calls for advice on his sudden change of behaviour and we also spoke to our Vet who was pretty concerned about this change.
While waiting for assessment by our Vet and a Professional Behaviourist he unfortunately did the same thing again. He was taken out for his usual walks at his usual place, but was not allowed off lead at all at this time, whereas he had always been allowed to be free. However, on that day, whilst in the cage of the van with the cage door open, my husband was about to put his lead on, but he noticed another very old friend of ours and before Jim could put his lead on he took off and ran straight at this man, he NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED TO BITE THIS PERSON, BUT WAS INTENT ON PULLING HIM DOWN TO THE GROUND - this in my opinion is a very natural instinct in a WILD ANIMAL, but he was not a wild animal!!!!! However, this man is an ex-dog handler and was calm and confident, albeit shocked by Reef's change - Jim got him on lead and put him back in the car. Our friend questioned how he had changed and he was told what had happened previously.
Anyway, that day we phoned the Vet and after a lot of tears and discussion it was agreed that he was dangerous not only to others, but could be to us also as he was disobeying Jim's commands, which he had never done before.
It was was a heavy heart that Jim had him put to sleep that day - 3 years old and fit and healthy otherwise. The Vet said we could have a PM, but he felt that his diagnosis of frontal brain tumour meant he would have been put to sleep if it was discovered this was the cause of his change of character. We were to lose him one way or the other and because of my medical condition I could not have controlled a large dog if it attacked me/us - which would have happened in the Vet's opinion - which I wholly respect - we have been with the same Vet for 27 years - he was a trainee then.
We learned a big HARD lesson from all of this and that is simply that the 2 hip scoring systems are NOT COMPATIBLE.
From this we decided we would use the UK system for our dogs in the future - however the either or system is still in place.
With the new way of showing and health testing system this is not allowed and should never be allowed - WE BELIEVE THAT IF A DOG HAS BOTH SYSTEMS IN PLACE THEN THEY SHOULD BOTH BE A PASS - BVA 20 OR UNDER AND SV PASS ALONG WITH IT A, FAST OR NZ.
Now T. Ruthurts can tear this apart if you like - I have no more to say on this matter - we lost a wonderful dog and will never forget him - so good on you for opening up an old wound for which we paid a pretty dear price - by being threatened by anonymous morons by mail etc - so I hope you also have a good day.
Aileen
At an Open Show after being in the ring I stood at the ring with a longstanding friend, who had know this dog from being a baby and had no issues with him. She was actually at my side and had been for a few minutes when he, from a lying start, flew at her - no one was more shocked than I was as I had to deal with this and to say my heart just about stopped was no joke. HE DID NOT BITE HER, although he may have intended to - I managed to pull him back and struggled to hold him until my husband came out of the ring to help me - I do have muscle disease and for the life of me could not get him to down. I was totally devastated by this incident because of the what COULD HAVE HAPPENED to our friend and the fact that Jim and I have a no bit policy unless the dog is defening our or our families lives. I knew what may have to happen.
We took him home and made a few phone calls for advice on his sudden change of behaviour and we also spoke to our Vet who was pretty concerned about this change.
While waiting for assessment by our Vet and a Professional Behaviourist he unfortunately did the same thing again. He was taken out for his usual walks at his usual place, but was not allowed off lead at all at this time, whereas he had always been allowed to be free. However, on that day, whilst in the cage of the van with the cage door open, my husband was about to put his lead on, but he noticed another very old friend of ours and before Jim could put his lead on he took off and ran straight at this man, he NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED TO BITE THIS PERSON, BUT WAS INTENT ON PULLING HIM DOWN TO THE GROUND - this in my opinion is a very natural instinct in a WILD ANIMAL, but he was not a wild animal!!!!! However, this man is an ex-dog handler and was calm and confident, albeit shocked by Reef's change - Jim got him on lead and put him back in the car. Our friend questioned how he had changed and he was told what had happened previously.
Anyway, that day we phoned the Vet and after a lot of tears and discussion it was agreed that he was dangerous not only to others, but could be to us also as he was disobeying Jim's commands, which he had never done before.
It was was a heavy heart that Jim had him put to sleep that day - 3 years old and fit and healthy otherwise. The Vet said we could have a PM, but he felt that his diagnosis of frontal brain tumour meant he would have been put to sleep if it was discovered this was the cause of his change of character. We were to lose him one way or the other and because of my medical condition I could not have controlled a large dog if it attacked me/us - which would have happened in the Vet's opinion - which I wholly respect - we have been with the same Vet for 27 years - he was a trainee then.
We learned a big HARD lesson from all of this and that is simply that the 2 hip scoring systems are NOT COMPATIBLE.
From this we decided we would use the UK system for our dogs in the future - however the either or system is still in place.
With the new way of showing and health testing system this is not allowed and should never be allowed - WE BELIEVE THAT IF A DOG HAS BOTH SYSTEMS IN PLACE THEN THEY SHOULD BOTH BE A PASS - BVA 20 OR UNDER AND SV PASS ALONG WITH IT A, FAST OR NZ.
Now T. Ruthurts can tear this apart if you like - I have no more to say on this matter - we lost a wonderful dog and will never forget him - so good on you for opening up an old wound for which we paid a pretty dear price - by being threatened by anonymous morons by mail etc - so I hope you also have a good day.
Aileen
by t ruthurts on 10 July 2010 - 12:07
Aileen
Another case of do as I say not as I do.
Our opinion is that if you have a BVA RESULT and an SV RESULT they must both be passes to enter a Survey. If you fail either one or the other you should not be allowed to Survey that dog/bitch.
Then way if this is your opinion was his BVA hip score not disclosed to the Surveyor at the time of his Breed Survey. Nor was his BVA hip Score included in your advert in the Breed Council Year book 2007 page 91.
T,Ruthurts
Another case of do as I say not as I do.
Our opinion is that if you have a BVA RESULT and an SV RESULT they must both be passes to enter a Survey. If you fail either one or the other you should not be allowed to Survey that dog/bitch.
Then way if this is your opinion was his BVA hip score not disclosed to the Surveyor at the time of his Breed Survey. Nor was his BVA hip Score included in your advert in the Breed Council Year book 2007 page 91.
T,Ruthurts
by Abby Normal on 10 July 2010 - 12:07
It would certainly seem absolutely imperative that a pass on both SV and BVA for hips and elbows be a requirement for a breed survey, but it should also be conditional for entry to any event GSDL/WUSV event. What about dogs that already have a (german) breed survey? Should they be re-surveyed?
I have always felt that the German system is far too flexible in it's grading, and that appears to be borne out. If breed health is as paramount as is being said by the GSDL/WUSV organisation we most certainly should ensure that imports are re-scored in the UK, both for hips and elbows.
Aileen that is so very sad, and I would not wish this on anyone, it must have been an awful experience. You clearly have taken the step of UK grading every one of your dogs as a result, which to my mind is the action of a responsible breeder, and not someone who will exploit the system.
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